Wirblewind to powerful

[hithero]

I've been using the quad 20mm for a couple of games now and it just seems to be too devestating; it gets to roll 4xD6+3 with re-rolls for misses. Like the Panther in my other thread, it destroys any light armour or aircraft it looks at. Although not been tested yet, it is in theory more than capable in taking out Shermans to in a single round of shooting.

Should these really have the +3 damage when the anti-tank versions have +2? We can't see why these should be better at taking out tanks (ignoring the extra 3+ shots) than a 20mm canon and have house-ruled they now get +2)

 

[Agis]

The Wirbelwind used the 2 cm Flakvierling 38 which had a good AP.

What is the other "+2 anti-tank version" you are talking about?

 

[hithero]

The other 20mm guns on the German charts.

 

[Agis]

If you are talking about the 2 cm KwK 30 L/55 (2 cm Kampfwagenkanone 30 L/55) mounted on the SdKfz 222, we are talking about a different gun.
Do not presume that same calibre equals same game effect!
The 2 cm KwK 30 L/55 (2 cm Kampfwagenkanone 30 L/55) had more or less only 1/2 of the AP capability of the 2 cm Flakvierling 38.

The 2cm Quad is also more then 4x as expensive in points as the 2cm L55.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Do not presume that same calibre equals same game effect!

Indeed - quite aside from the length of the barrel, when writing an army list you also have to worry about the type of ammunition commonly used, how the weapon was employed, and so on.

When a dedicated AA unit appears on the table (and this goes double for Modern Combat), you will be wanting to take it out before aircraft appear. As for their effect on light vehicles and infantry, imagine the joy of the operators in real life when they discovered the same thing!

 

[hithero]

I understand that but I would have thought a tank gun would have better ammo than an AA gun for dealing with armour, I don't think a Sherman should fear instant destruction when shot at by one - any chance of answering the .50 AA quad querry a little way down which can't actually shoot down aircraft.

 

[Hiromoon]

The AT guns have a different method of 'attack' on armor, hithero... and I'm looking at the book right now.... a Sherman can't be instantlly destroyed by the Quad AA gun... 4xD6+3 would, at most, net you a 9 (or four 9s). Of the American tanks that have to worry about going up against it, we have two tank destroyers and a light tank. You'll also note the AT guns are D10+2 or D10+4 in streangth, meaning even the frontal armor of the Sherman tank has something to worry about.

The German tanks don't mount a 20 mm gun. And the ones you're probably are referring to are obviously not intended to engage tanks (seriously, they're great against soft skin and light tanks, but anything heavier and you don't want to do more than simple scout/harassment).

 

[hithero]

Sorry Hiromoon what I mean't by instant destruction is by 2 'Target' hits. The quad needs to score a 5 on 4D6, the chances are with re-rolls the quad will score 2 or 3 5's - some may be saved. The Panzer2 has a 20mm and I'm sure the quad 20 was not intended to be a tank hunter either.

 

[Hiromoon]

Dude, if you're trying to hunt tanks with the Wirbelwind... Remember the purpose of the vehicle. If the weapon looks strong enough to engage tanks, the chassis it's mounted on will probably NOT hold up to direct tank fire.

While you're probable able to engage the enemy with it, I doub't you're going to get enough 5's to overwhelm the 4+ save on a Sherman. Then it comes down to the luck of the die roll.

So, unless the AA vehicle's packing the 88mm, it'll have to be lucky to eliminate a Sherman...

 

[Graywinter]

When this thing moves, and has to re roll hits ... how does it use the Accurate trait which allows it to re roll the misses? Do you re roll misses after you have re rolled the hits, or vice versa?

 

[Agis]

When this thing moves, and has to re roll hits ... how does it use the Accurate trait which allows it to re roll the misses? Do you re roll misses after you have re rolled the hits, or vice versa?

IMO just follow the rules to the letter (final word is from Matt!):
Re-roll succesful hits because of moving AND re-roll failed hits because of accurate.

 

[hithero]

I think the best way to do this is to re-roll all the misses and then re-roll all hits - but don't the rules say you can't re-roll a re-roll? So if you re-roll to hit you can't then re-roll that to miss due to moving??

 

[Graywinter]

I think the best way to do this is to re-roll all the misses and then re-roll all hits - but don't the rules say you can't re-roll a re-roll? So if you re-roll to hit you can't then re-roll that to miss due to moving??

I guess I am asking for priority here... do you reroll because of moving first, or because of the accurate trait first?

It does make a difference! If you reroll your misses first, then reroll all hits, you are more likely to end up with more misses. If you reroll your hits first, then your misses, you'll come out with fewer misses (unless you just rolled really poorly in the first place)

However, since this thing never really misses troops - only missing on a 1 - it doesn't matter except for getting kills.

 

[hithero]

I had to go and have another read Greywinter about what constitutes as a miss. A 1 is always a miss (can this be re-rolled?) but a 2 and 3 don't reach the Target score and so are also misses, and these are re-rolled? Of course this is not so important with the quad 20 with its +3 (+2 in our games) but what about the quad .50 with its straight D6's?

 

[Graywinter]

I'm not really sure about any of that - I was hoping Matt or Agis would have some idea how it was supposed to work. That Wirbelwind is really powerful as-is. I just wipe infantry out like crazy with it.

Then again... it was a powerful weapon like the werfer.

 

[Alexb83]

There were also only about 100 of them made during the entire course of the war.

 

[Court Jester]

There were also only about 100 of them made during the entire course of the war.

Your point about real world availability although spot on falls flat with points based WWII games... :wink:

Which is sad really.

All games like FoW and WaW have this problem.

Propper scenario play gets ignored in favour of pick up games built around points values... this however is a very different kettle of fish to the strength of the Wirbelwind...

 

[Graywinter]

I sense that you are anti points value... :wink:

It would be great to see a mechanic for reflecting the rarity of a given item/unit in points based games but the only way is to limit the number available - which doesn't really solve anything because people still can take them quite easily.

As I said before, WaW is loosely based on WW2, so its not really concerned with totally accurate information. Just kind of a miniatures game that uses WW2 models.

Pick up games are really the only way to go unless you have a regular opponent who feels the same way - you can set up your games in advance.

 

[Court Jester]

I sense that you are anti points value... :wink:

It would be great to see a mechanic for reflecting the rarity of a given item/unit in points based games but the only way is to limit the number available - which doesn't really solve anything because people still can take them quite easily.

As I said before, WaW is loosely based on WW2, so its not really concerned with totally accurate information. Just kind of a miniatures game that uses WW2 models.

Pick up games are really the only way to go unless you have a regular opponent who feels the same way - you can set up your games in advance.

I'm not against points games at all...

The only real way you could represent the availability of items like the Wirbelwind is to have army lists like in GW's Rogue Trader... randomly determin what forces are available to you at the start of the game...

Or... the limitation could be something like "you can only use this unit until it gets destroyed in a game. Then you may not use it ever again... " :shock:

I think both players can agree to use points values and still follow real world Orders of Battle.

The other problem of course is that as players we all want to use the really cool units and models we have!

Although I will say that min/max points/tournament gaming certainly has its place as well and I have certainly endulged in said games... 8)

 

[Alexb83]

Bleh, trying to force in some 'availability' dynamic is half the problem - some of the points values as discussed in other threads are already notionally adjusted for 'how available' an item was. I think the MG42 was an example - which is cheaper on a tank than the equivalent MG from another army.

It really is grasping at straws because the arguments can go many ways.
A T34/76 is probably about on par with a Panzer IV long 75. Better armour, worse gun. In turn it's pretty on-par with a Sherman. If you were to go on availability, then the Panzer IV ought to be about 10 times more expensive because there were so few made (in comparison).

Point off how effective something is. If you want to play a game based on a real OOB, then do it, but don't expect points to balance out

Things like the Wirbelwind, the Maus, the Ratte, the Tortoise, KV-2... they're fun to have a laugh with, but someone regularly fielding them as part of an army is not my idea of fun.