What will happen to the original SST

[Hiromoon]

The method I've been playing is effectively as follows:

- Nuke not fired, but trooper carrying it is killed. The trooper and the points for the munitions (plus the points spent on the launcher and any other add-ons) are counted for the enemy.

- Nuke is fired, those points are locked out, meaning that the 300pts are effectively denied to the enemy, even if the trooper who fired it is killed later on.

- Nuke not fired, but the trooper lives, the points remain firmly in your hand, and congradulations for not wasting valuable munitions.

This goes the same for ordanace carried on Chickenhawks (Blizzard Packs), Slingshot borne ordanance, TAC fighter ordanance. Missiles are slightly different.

If the missile is shot down, the enemy gets the points, but if it crashes as it's origionally intended, bam, points locked out.

Strikes me as odd that by using a weapon in its proper fashion your enemy should benefit from it.

I mean, if we really want to get down to it, can a bullet fired from a gun be re-used in a future battle? How about a grenade? Sure, we don't have a VP cost for rounds fired (that'd be an amazing battle... no shots fired because you don't want to give your foe points), but the effect is the same.

 

[Paladin]

Bwha? So Hunter/Killer Missiles in Warhammer 40k count for the Enemy's VPs?

I'm sorry Paladin, but I gotta disagree on this point: The weapon, once expended, doesn't and shouldn't count towards the Enemy's VPs, as it's use has effectively denied the enemy the chance to claim those points. Now, if it's a Nuclear Warhead being toted around by a Cap Trooper lugging his rocket launcher, and said trooper gets killed before he gets to fire it, then the enemy can claim those points.

So if I buy 1 LAMI squad with 2 Longbows and 4 nukes and launch them before dying, the most points you can ever earn from slaughtering me is 160 even though my force is a 1360 pt army? See example below for more.

If you kill a 300 point model/s with the Nuke the enemy gets No points, and you get 300

If you kill 250 points of models, then the enemy gets the left over value of your nuke, IE 50 points. You still get 250.

This way the enemy gets a little something if you wasted your nuke inefficiently, and you of course are just as well off as before.

So the enemy can earn points if you use it wisely, but roll poorly?

My own feeling on this is that the points spent upon a nuke could of course be spent on troops or air assets, etc. Thus, points expended are ponts expended.

In attrition tactics you just try to make the points that you use up in casualties cause even more casualties to the other side. In a way, a nuke is kamikaze points. You expend the asset in the hopes of causing more damage than the loss of the asset causes you. If you blow up nothing but sand, the enemy counts the points. If you cause 350 points of enemy casualties then you "net" 50 points in the trade. Another way to look at this is that if you took those same 300 points and bought a Slingshot and then flew it into a Plasma Bug kamikaze style, you then cancel out his points along with your own. Points is points, guys. :wink:

Exactly. You are risking the expenditure of your assets to inflict more damage than you started with.


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Crux of the matter:

Situation 1: Time is called before the end of a match and the winner is to be determined by the point value of the models left on the board. The MI have fired a nuke during the match. They have 350 of a 1000 pts initially purchased left on the table. The Archnids have 400 pts of 1000 left.
WINNER: Arachnids. They have 50pts more on the table.

Situation 2: Time is called before the end of a match and the winner is to be determined by the point value of the models you killed during game play. The MI have fired a nuke during the match. They have 350 of a 1000 pts initially purchased left on the table. The Archnids have 400 pts of 1000 left.
WINNER: MI. They killed 600 points of Bugs. The Arachnids only killed 350 points because 300 of the potential enemies to kill vanished somehow in the Nuke.

Resolutions?

 

[Hiromoon]

....I'll have to look at the LAMI rules again, but 4 nukes in one squad? Even in one squad with two longbows, only 2 of those nukes (as per my understanding, even with PL3) could be fired by the Longbows, the others would have to be placed.

 

[Gauntlet-]

Yes Paladin, the enemy would gain 50 points if you used your nuke on only 250 points of enemy forces, or if you rolled absurdly badly.

OF course you earned 250 points, so your net gain is 200.

Just weakens the net gain effect, which before is basically the 300 the enemy can never get because you fired it, and the kills, which in our scenario is basically a net of 550.

 

[Xorrandor]

Strikes me as odd that by using a weapon in its proper fashion your enemy should benefit from it.

And yet it probably doesn't strike you as odd that, by using Ambushing Skinnies in a proper fashion (suicidally tying down a flank for a turn or two), the enemy benefits from that.

How do you handle suicide Bugs? Do they count as expended munitions, or dead troops? The line you are drawing between the two is unclear to me.

So if I buy 1 LAMI squad with 2 Longbows and 4 nukes and launch them before dying, the most points you can ever earn from slaughtering me is 160 even though my force is a 1360 pt army? See example below for more.

Even better, you can launch two of them and then set the other two off on your own position. Suicide for victory! :shock:

 

[Goldwyrm]

On Nukes..and such.

Page 54 of the rules under "WINNING THE GAME" reads:

There are a few extra notes concerning the distribution of Mission Points:

- One-Shot! weapons are deducted from the value of the unit carrying them once they are deployed.

- Air unit payloads are deducted from the value of the unit carrying them once deployed (the full payload is deducted even if only a single bomb, missile, or other One-Shot! weapon is deployed).

- For the purposes of mission points, units that are airborne or underground do not count as being within a deployment area.

So that appears to be how it is and it is a double edged sword. In some scenarios you stand to lose victory points because your surviving unit that had a nuke might only be worth a portion of what you paid for it.

 

[Mage]

Does not seem in the spirit of the game for the nuke to be worth points if it is not used. In real life it would be used at some point in the battle. A lieutenant would hardly risk a squad to save money for the brass. Maybe the rules mechanic should be changed to reflect this.

 

[Goldwyrm]

Does not seem in the spirit of the game for the nuke to be worth points if it is not used.

It is not worth points other than initial cost in any situation. The One-Shot! weapon value is deducted from the value of the unit once they are deployed. So a 200 point MI unit with a 300 point nuke costs 500 points to field but is worth only 200 victory points for either side.

If I'm the MI player I only get 200 points for the squad surviving even if the nuke is NOT used.

The Arachnid player only gets 200 points for destroying them regardless of whether the nuke was used.

A simpler way of saying this is that one shot weapon costs and payloads with One-shot! weapons do not count toward victory points for either side, used or not.

 

[Gregor]

Going from vs 1 competition rules this makes a huge difference when points differential is being considered, and particularly if to win big you have to kill 2000 points worth of enemy (scoring on points killed).

Firing 2 nukes means a max of say 1400 points available for the enemy to get, so there is only ever likely to be a narrow win. This can have a very real affect on placings in a points for kills driven competition.

 

[Hiromoon]

Interesting way to torpedo the project, Goldwyrm.

 

[Goldwyrm]

Interesting way to torpedo the project, Goldwyrm.

Now I'm confused.

What project have I torpedoed by stating the actual rule to the original game I'm still playing????

 

[darklord4]

Even better, you can launch two of them and then set the other two off on your own position. Suicide for victory! :shock:

YOU TRYING TO BE A HERO, WATKINS? 8)

 

[Hiromoon]

Interesting way to torpedo the project, Goldwyrm.

Now I'm confused.

What project have I torpedoed by stating the actual rule to the original game I'm still playing????

The project to keep people confused and guessing in an effort to infiltrate their homes and steal their SST collections.

 

[Goldwyrm]

Interesting way to torpedo the project, Goldwyrm.

Now I'm confused.

What project have I torpedoed by stating the actual rule to the original game I'm still playing????

The project to keep people confused and guessing in an effort to infiltrate their homes and steal their SST collections.

Ohh..that project. For a very brief moment you had me thinking I'd unknowingly done some irrepairable damage to actual work on the new rules by clarifying an old rule. :lol:

FWIW, I see the point made about tournament play. I think the current rules work really well for the missions, priority levels, etc. If people are playing something different like a kills driven competition then they should change the rules to match what they're doing. I'm a scenario player when it comes to SST, so I'm fine with the nukes and one-shots being the way they are.

 

[Galatea]

The big problem is indeed tournament play. We always deduct the used missiles and payloads, simply because otherwise you almost automatically win if you field 3 Nukes.
There is only 1100p your enemy can ever earn by shooting your troops and it shouldn't be that hard to gain this value of points from you enemy with your three nukes.