What minis are you going to use?

[Mr Evil]

Has anyone seen these in real life before? The Furuta Warship Collection. They look good, but I am wondering if they relly are, and if they are only for static display... or if you can make them waterline models.

eg.

If the photo was taken of them the size they all appear to be, they are not to a consistant scale, and would probably not make good use for miniature gaming. On the small end of the scale is the sub, with the modern US "nuke" carrier on the large end. Both of these appear to have had their scale changed to be about the same overall size as the rest. On the plus side, the Bismarck, KGV and Rodney look about right.

-edited to clean up my too-quick typing errors

scale wise there a 1/700 to 1/3000 Scale Military Warship Model Collection

 

[BuShips]

Basing ship minis is really a personal decision. There are pluses and minuses either way you go. Storage is easy for ships without bases as they can be nestled up together, but then paint can wear for that same reason. If you ever play on the carpet, bases locate the ships better and so they don't get lost in the "swells" :lol: , only to be picked up later by a vacuum cleaner . Going baseless does indeed give a bit more of a realistic appearance on a table, especially if a colored cloth is used for ocean. Bases are helpful especially when using a ruler for movement, as a guide (yes I realise ships are straight too, unless they've been broke in two by a torpedo attack :wink: ). Especially when playing with non-photo-recall players or non-naval enthusiasts, it is very helpful to have ship names listed on bases (and even the nationality!) so players and casual observers can see "what is what". For example, I own collections in two scales, and even based one while not basing the other (go figure) for many, many years. A few years ago I decided to base my other collection mostly for others to know what ship classifications and ship's name they were playing with. Then you have a reference that points from the ship model directly to the ship's stat sheet. This greatly helps a player that can't instantly recall the detailed contents of three volumes of Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships. :wink:

 

[BuShips]

scale wise there a 1/700 to 1/3000 Scale Military Warship Model Collection

Yeah, ok. I'd expect that seeing the sub against a nuke carrier over a thousand feet long. Thanks for the info. Just as a ship collection they look nice, but for me I'd never play a battle with ships from different scales. It's that, or you have a house rule and always group the 1/700 scale in the middle of the table with the 1/3000 scale ships limited to the table edges. That way you get forced perspective and the outboard ships appear to be on the horizon, heh :lol: .

 

[Mr Evil]

how about using clear plastic and then paint wave wakes on them so they match you cloth on the table ?

 

[BuShips]

how about using clear plastic and then paint wave wakes on them so they match you cloth on the table ?

You certainly could do that as an option. You could even add subdued ship labels by reverse-printing text on a clear label and then applying it to the underside edge. You'd maybe only really see the label when looking straight down on it, otherwise it would be minimised for those that don't like labels :wink: .

 

[Wulf Corbett]

how about using clear plastic and then paint wave wakes on them so they match you cloth on the table ?

More or less what I'm doing, but using blue-tinted semi-transparent plastic. My gaming table is black, unfortunately, for ACtA.

Wulf

 

[Reaverman]

If you look on the aft of the Exeters stand, you'll see a blank spot. Thats where I am going to have the name of the ships

 

[BuShips]

how about using clear plastic and then paint wave wakes on them so they match you cloth on the table ?

More or less what I'm doing, but using blue-tinted semi-transparent plastic. My gaming table is black, unfortunately, for ACtA.

Wulf

Wulf, just tell them they are fighting in the Black Sea... :wink:
A more seriously thought out answer would be toss a blue vinyl or blue cloth over it for naval fights.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Wulf, just tell them they are fighting in the Black Sea... :wink:

Or fight a lot of night battles...

A more seriously thought out answer would be toss a blue vinyl or blue cloth over it for naval fights.

I like to be able to slide the minis across the table rather than picking 'em up all the time. You can't do that on a cloth.

Wulf

 

[BuShips]

Wulf, just tell them they are fighting in the Black Sea... :wink:

Or fight a lot of night battles...

A more seriously thought out answer would be toss a blue vinyl or blue cloth over it for naval fights.

I like to be able to slide the minis across the table rather than picking 'em up all the time. You can't do that on a cloth.

Wulf

On some you can. I know. Just look in fabric stores for the slippery stuff :wink: . Vinyl shouldn't grab onto the minis, either. Bottom line, use whatever works for you.

 

[Reaverman]

Wulf, just tell them they are fighting in the Black Sea... :wink:

Or fight a lot of night battles...

A more seriously thought out answer would be toss a blue vinyl or blue cloth over it for naval fights.

I like to be able to slide the minis across the table rather than picking 'em up all the time. You can't do that on a cloth.

Wulf

On some you can. I know. Just look in fabric stores for the slippery stuff :wink: . Vinyl shouldn't grab onto the minis, either. Bottom line, use whatever works for you.

Vinyl? BuShips you dark horse :twisted:

 

[BuShips]

Vinyl? BuShips you dark horse :twisted:

Well, I won't even bite at that, heh. :wink: I really was serious, btw. On another thread,

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=308709&sid=b8f3f897ea5243ef8ef1fca8b0d14678

Eisho points to a webstore that sells vinyl game mats-

http://www.terrainmat.com/SeaScapeAtlantic.html

Not really my thing to use, as I've got tablecloths that work fine for "seascapes".

 

[Reaverman]

Vinyl? BuShips you dark horse :twisted:

Well, I won't even bite at that, heh. :wink: I really was serious, btw. On another thread,

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=308709&sid=b8f3f897ea5243ef8ef1fca8b0d14678

Eisho points to a webstore that sells vinyl game mats-

http://www.terrainmat.com/SeaScapeAtlantic.html

Not really my thing to use, as I've got tablecloths that work fine for "seascapes".

Very nice, but I can knock up a collapsing table (painted) for half the price :?

 

[BuShips]

Vinyl? BuShips you dark horse :twisted:

Well, I won't even bite at that, heh. :wink: I really was serious, btw. On another thread,

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=308709&sid=b8f3f897ea5243ef8ef1fca8b0d14678

Eisho points to a webstore that sells vinyl game mats-

http://www.terrainmat.com/SeaScapeAtlantic.html

Not really my thing to use, as I've got tablecloths that work fine for "seascapes".

Very nice, but I can knock up a collapsing table (painted) for half the price :?

And why would you want a collapsing table? I'd want mine to be stable and sturdy and not fall down... :lol:

 

[Reaverman]

Well, I won't even bite at that, heh. :wink: I really was serious, btw. On another thread,

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=308709&sid=b8f3f897ea5243ef8ef1fca8b0d14678

Eisho points to a webstore that sells vinyl game mats-

http://www.terrainmat.com/SeaScapeAtlantic.html

Not really my thing to use, as I've got tablecloths that work fine for "seascapes".

Very nice, but I can knock up a collapsing table (painted) for half the price :?

And why would you want a collapsing table? I'd want mine to be stable and sturdy and not fall down... :lol:

LOL....actually they are more folding, than collapsing!

 

[BuShips]

LOL....actually they are more folding, than collapsing!

Yeah I figured as much, but I don't pass up many chances to kid you chaps when I get an opening. :wink:

 

[admiral_tee]

G3 and N3 are amongst the planned ships for the RN "What If?" project, which will also include the Malta class carriers, Lion class battleships, ronstructed Hood, etc. To be honest I should have done it already but "real life" is intruding at the moment

Well there is no rush we don't need everything at once as as long as it is in the pipeline.

Virtual naval history is fine, but it should not be taken to extremes too much. It would have taken many years to design and build a German H Class battleship, by which time the inevitable war would have broken out and prevented their completion. The the follow-up designs were so far fetched and in most cases not even wanted by the Kriegsmarine owing to their sheer scale. To quote Master Yoda "size matters not". There are limits to the practicability of large designs. Still good fun to speculate.

I hope with this statement doesnt mean that some of the proposed H Class BB studies will make it into 'print'.
The H39 class was really the last of the 'realistic' design studies, armed with 16" dual guns in 4 turrets, deep load about 62'000 tons.
Whilst you could argue that Germany couldnt have built all its Z Plan Navy, it also very debatable as to whether the UK could've built its G and N class BB/BC's as well as the Lion's.
The UK ships would've been built in the middle of the 'Depression (20's-30's or the end of the war), and the German ships in the late 30's to mid 40's.

I don't want to 'jump onto a soap box' immediately. I just thought i detected a 'dismissive' tone :roll: , disregarding the planned H class whilst on the other hand giving some serious thought to the 'G - N - Lion' class. :shock:

I know the H44 was merely a design study into building a BB resistant to aircraft bomb's etc.
But the H39's were realistic and 2 (H and J) were laid down in July/Aug and work stopped in Oct.
The G and N weren't. And nor was the Lion.

Hey, i'm just very protective of the KM, my bad :wink: :lol:

tee out
and sorry bout the rant

 

[Lord David the Denied]

There's a GHQ model for one of the German "what-if" battleships, forget which one, but none of the British G3 or N3 designs. There's also a modernised pre-Dreadnought for the Kriegsmarine...

 

[Jellicoe]

I hope with this statement doesnt mean that some of the proposed H Class BB studies will make it into 'print'.
The H39 class was really the last of the 'realistic' design studies, armed with 16" dual guns in 4 turrets, deep load about 62'000 tons.
Whilst you could argue that Germany couldnt have built all its Z Plan Navy, it also very debatable as to whether the UK could've built its G and N class BB/BC's as well as the Lion's.
The UK ships would've been built in the middle of the 'Depression (20's-30's or the end of the war), and the German ships in the late 30's to mid 40's.

I don't want to 'jump onto a soap box' immediately. I just thought i detected a 'dismissive' tone :roll: , disregarding the planned H class whilst on the other hand giving some serious thought to the 'G - N - Lion' class. :shock:

I know the H44 was merely a design study into building a BB resistant to aircraft bomb's etc.
But the H39's were realistic and 2 (H and J) were laid down in July/Aug and work stopped in Oct.
The G and N weren't. And nor was the Lion.

Hey, i'm just very protective of the KM, my bad :wink: :lol:

tee out
and sorry bout the rant

Ranting is perfectly in order, no need to apologise for that.

DM has said as much that the speculative designs for capital ships would eventually be released in some way or another. Which is great. I have a lot of time for this kind of activity, but at the same time a little caution has to be exercised. The German navy does receive a lot of attention - which is the same for most aspects of the German military for whatever reasons.

Yes I am being slightly dismissive.

These are my personal observations based on having spent far too much time in the archives over the last 3 years. This does not make me right and I don't claim to be. If there is one thing you learn it is nothing is quite as it seems upon closer inspection. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me and welcome it.

Lets leave aside the issue whether or not the German economy would have been able to actually provide the financing and resources for any form of naval armaments - which it probably could not have - and just focus on the naval side

The H might have been laid down, but that should not in itself be taken too far. The Kriegsmarine had a track record of laying down ships without the design being completed and/or changing it radically during construction. Not a single vessel was commissioned in the planned time and larger vessels on average took 18-24 months longer. What is striking is how little thought and real planning went into any of the designs after Bismarck/Tirpitz. Lots of sketches and preliminary drawings, but little actual work.

The Hs were laid down as much for internal politics. Hitler had only just 6 months earlier given Raeder priority for naval construction and he needed to have something to show for that. Every German ship laid down in the 1930s was in some way experimental and designed to act as a test for new components. The Hs were the most complex designs to date. The one persistent problem with German ships was the propulsion issue and this would certainly again been the main cause for the delay.

As far as the Lions go - they were a worked out design (ok there was trouble with the new 16” mounts) and the first 2, Temeraire and Lion were laid down in the summer of 1939 (before the Hs). British yards also had more resources and workers. In my mind there is little doubt that the Lions would have been in service long before any Hs. They would also have been effective fighting units.

In any naval arms race from the late 1930s Britain would have out-built the Germans. They already did it before 1912 and there was no reason to suppose it would not have done so again. German naval industry was in a shambles and it would still have taken years of investment to be able to compete on anything like an equal footing. This would not have gone unnoticed. Interestingly in all the planning for the Z-Plan there is not a single reference to possible British reaction. This alone says volumes. The whole German plan was a based on best case scenarios, overly optimistic assessments and without any basis to the political developments occurring - the good planners in the Kriegsmarine also knew this.

But in the end this is a game which is supposed to be fun, so I look forward to Hs, Lions and Montanas having a go at each other.

 

[admiral_tee]

There's a GHQ model for one of the German "what-if" battleships, forget which one, but none of the British G3 or N3 designs. There's also a modernised pre-Dreadnought for the Kriegsmarine...

I think that might be the Schleswig-Holstein of the old Deutschland class.
That ship fired the first few shots of WW2 - on a Polish port where it was berth.
I've got a lot of footage of that incident. It's a very disturbing sequence where the old BB is firing at the harbour, the city and the surrounding hills/countryside.

tee out