What if Instead of the 3rd Imperium, a Republic

[Tom Kalbfus]

What if we were to take a map of Charted Space, with the planets just as they are and posit an alternate history where a Republic was established instead of the Third Imperium. What would be required?

I believe in High Guard, the classic version at least there was something called a Jump Projector, basically a ship equipped with it should send another object into Jump Space and have it end up elsewhere. What limits a Republic is the ability to send real time information to the Capital and back, so you can have voting and elections in a reasonable time period. Now one important gadget needed to make a Republic possible is a form of FTL communication, the most conservative of which is an extrapolation of Jump technology or the Jump Projector.

A jump projector operates like a jump drive, only it jumps something outside itself and doesn't go on the trip through jump space it sends other objects on.

There is no minimum size for objects that a jump projector can project, the jump fuel is injected into the jump, the fuel tank-age and the Jump projector stay behind. This means the Jump Projector have be enormous, the rule would be that it needs 10% of the hull volume in fuel for each parsec across space that it projects the target, so if the target is 10 displacement tons in volume, to project it for Jump 100 parsecs, you would need 100 tons of jump fuel, since this doesn't have to fit onboard the 10 ton target, there is no problem with jumping this far, in a matter of a week a probe can be sent 100 parsecs with a recorded message that it plays and broadcasts upon arrival. Now a jump-100 projector is expensive, so only small objects are sent mainly for telecommunications purposes, but this would be fast enough to enable some sort of Republic to function.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

What if we were to take a map of Charted Space, with the planets just as they are and posit an alternate history where a Republic was established instead of the Third Imperium. What would be required?

I society that wants a republic. I'm assuming your future society has a renewed interest in starting one.

 

[Anonymous]

How about leaving current day politics out of the game and having, you know, a bit of fun?

 

[dragoner]

Been there, done this, my timeline has the Imperium establishing a diet.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

How about leaving current day politics out of the game and having, you know, a bit of fun?

Some referees want a certain government and politics for their setting. Makes things more believable is all. From there, economics can start to be defined. Then the types of jobs that player characters will have, etc.

 

[AdrianH]

As well as the politics, you may want to consider what effect the suggested jump projector would have on the Traveller universe. Start with the intended idea, which is to send communications 100 parsecs in one go, thus overturning one of the fundamental limitations of the normal Traveller universe - the speed of communication is the speed of the fastest ship. Proceed onto what happens if you use the same device to send something else, e.g. a nuclear warhead.

Besides, it doesn't take ultra-fast communications to establish a republic. The Romans managed it. So did the French. The problem, which has been seen in Traveller Imperial history as well, is that in due time a charismatic leader turns up at the capital with a battle fleet and says "I'm Emperor now". The main difference with the new technology is that everyone finds out about the change of government more quickly, and anyone who objects receives an express delivery nuclear warhead.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

As well as the politics, you may want to consider what effect the suggested jump projector would have on the Traveller universe. Start with the intended idea, which is to send communications 100 parsecs in one go, thus overturning one of the fundamental limitations of the normal Traveller universe - the speed of communication is the speed of the fastest ship. Proceed onto what happens if you use the same device to send something else, e.g. a nuclear warhead.

Besides, it doesn't take ultra-fast communications to establish a republic. The Romans managed it. So did the French. The problem, which has been seen in Traveller Imperial history as well, is that in due time a charismatic leader turns up at the capital with a battle fleet and says "I'm Emperor now". The main difference with the new technology is that everyone finds out about the change of government more quickly, and anyone who objects receives an express delivery nuclear warhead.

The nuclear warhead would appear at the 100 planetary diameter limit, the Jump Projector doesn't give the ability to send something deep within a planetary well, so the planetary defenses would detect the jump arrival and have plenty of time to destroy the warhead before it reached its target.

The warhead also takes the usual amount of time in Jump space, about a week. The warhead also can't be used as an anti-ship weapon, because at 100 parsecs, you don't know where a ship is going to be in a week's time, so you definitely can't target one from interstellar distances, A space station parked at the 100 diameter limit might be targeted though, most people who build space stations would probably realize that and not build their space station so far out, another Jump Projector might be parked at the Jump limit, it would serve as a stargate, it exists to jump ordinary spaceships that don't have jump drives, plenty of spaceships do have jump drives though, the main strategic value of a jump projector is to send something way beyond the limit of a normal Jump Drive. So a Jump Projector with a warhead might be used to take out another Jump projector, one would have to project the position of the enemy jump projector 1 week into the future, and a jump projector could have a maneuver drive, so its position would not be predictable to safeguard it from sudden nuclear attack.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

How about leaving current day politics out of the game and having, you know, a bit of fun?

No one mentioned a thing about current politics in this thread. Rome has a Republic after all, it later became an Empire, but first it was a Republic.
Since much of the 3rd Imperium nomenclature comes from the Roman Empire, I would suppose an Interstallar Republic would take the names of its institutions from the Roman Republic.

 

[CosmicGamer]

What if we were to take a map of Charted Space, with the planets just as they are and posit an alternate history where a Republic was established instead of the Third Imperium. What would be required?

I society that wants a republic. I'm assuming your future society has a renewed interest in starting one.

That's about it. As pointed out, republics are not new and existed with long travel and communication times. Don't see why jump drives and so forth would need any alteration.

 

[Reynard]

I want a Traveller universe in which each of those planets on the Traveller map realistically establish themselves as local sovereign groups determined by trade, consent or might and the restrictions of stellar geography. No long armed, not sure it even exists galactic super-government.

 

[Hopeless]

How would you define a Republic in Traveller?

Do X-boat routes apply with that communication range?

Do you limit it to how far their ships have jump capacity believing the capability of taking a week to jump out as far as they can go spend a day or two there before jumping straight back with any information/cargo/passengers gathered?

How would this work especially if it was to replace the Imperium?

 

[Reynard]

First, I found the Jump Projector. It's a weapon, not locomotion.

"Jump projectors induce a jump field around the target causing it to misjump. They are available at very high tech levels (TL21+) in the form of spinal mounts. Jump projectors are also called Jumpspace Projectors and Focused Gravity Weapons."

I had to look up republic and the forms and definitions are all over the map. Are we describing one particular republic? There is no such government in the Traveller world generator so exactly what are we saying is a 'republic'?

 

[Hopeless]

First, I found the Jump Projector. It's a weapon, not locomotion.

"Jump projectors induce a jump field around the target causing it to misjump. They are available at very high tech levels (TL21+) in the form of spinal mounts. Jump projectors are also called Jumpspace Projectors and Focused Gravity Weapons."

I had to look up republic and the forms and definitions are all over the map. Are we describing one particular republic? There is no such government in the Traveller world generator so exactly what are we saying is a 'republic'?

A group of worlds with a representative in a senate or parliament with a leader chosen from their ranks for a set period and specific powers that they can't just ignore to turn it into an Empire?
(Looks over at Star Wars for a moment) well better than that anyway. :twisted:

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

First, I found the Jump Projector. It's a weapon, not locomotion.

"Jump projectors induce a jump field around the target causing it to misjump. They are available at very high tech levels (TL21+) in the form of spinal mounts. Jump projectors are also called Jumpspace Projectors and Focused Gravity Weapons."

I had to look up republic and the forms and definitions are all over the map. Are we describing one particular republic? There is no such government in the Traveller world generator so exactly what are we saying is a 'republic'?

A group of worlds with a representative in a senate or parliament with a leader chosen from their ranks for a set period and specific powers that they can't just ignore to turn it into an Empire?
(Looks over at Star Wars for a moment) well better than that anyway. :twisted:

A Republic is Government type 4, which is listed as Representative Democracy. "Ruling Functions are performed by elected representatives."

The Imperium is Government Type 5 Feudal technocracy. "Ruling functions are performed by specific individuals (Emperor/King, Archduke, Duke, Marquis, Count, Baron, Knight, and Squire) for persons who agree to be ruled by them. Relationships are based on the performance of technical activities (Defense) which are mutually beneficial" I think in the Imperium, one is knighted for their military service, I don't think it is quite as symbolic as in the modern day UK. One in the Imperium doesn't get Knighted for being an excellent singer, or performing charitable works. A knighthood come with military responsibility, its not a "Nobel Prize". I think a typical profession for a Knight in the Imperium would be service in the Navy or the Marines, or in Scouts, or in the Imperial Army. A knight would be at least an Officer.

In a Republic, the military is subordinate to the civilian government, in the Imperium, the Emperor is part of the military at the top of the chain of command. the government is the Military.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

First, I found the Jump Projector. It's a weapon, not locomotion.

"Jump projectors induce a jump field around the target causing it to misjump. They are available at very high tech levels (TL21+) in the form of spinal mounts. Jump projectors are also called Jumpspace Projectors and Focused Gravity Weapons."

I had to look up republic and the forms and definitions are all over the map. Are we describing one particular republic? There is no such government in the Traveller world generator so exactly what are we saying is a 'republic'?

So in your description of Jump Projector, can it jump things without Jump Drives?, can it jump an asteroid for example or a fighter, or an astronaut in a space suit? I don't know how you can target a ship that is already in Jump Space and cause it to misjump from there.

Probably in the case of the astronaut, he would end up dead when he came out of Jump space as his life support would not last a week.

 

[Reynard]

Not my description. That's canon. Right in the description- induces a misjump. Nothing in the wording to say the ship is already in jumpspace. It's a rude, crude baseball bat clobbering a ship into a regular misjump and I'm sure that's the first description in the core book not the 'merciful' alternative. Weapons are like that.

Thank you all for pointing the book descriptor to me, I was in a hurry for an appointment and trying to read in dim light without my glasses. THAT government type actually also includes Democracy. There's the issue I was thinking about, can a galactic wide government based on representation of the people exist? In real life, distance and mode of communication restrict that form and the farther from the center of government, the less effective 'representation becomes no matter what the politicians tell you.

In a way, the United States was conceived more like the Imperium rather than a republic or democracy with each state, ideally, a sovereign entity sharing certain functions such as trade and extra-territorial defense. Even today we still see state populations acting more like insular entities than part of a whole.

To me the Imperium government type made sense based on communications, diversity and size. The original Sylean Federation was probably a Representative Democracy as each world has representatives in the Grand Senate. As the Federation expanded from a central government, it began to show increasing destabilization until Grand Duke Cleo re-envisioned the return of an Imperium decentralizing government in layers.

Tom misunderstood the Jump Projector both for function and technology. Even using the alternative Warp or Hyperspace engines still don't overcome the time and distance barrier. Even Star Trek had to almost eliminate or greatly overpower Warp Drive and subspace communication to allow the Federation to exist otherwise, as the original show attested, systems were often islands loosely linked somehow as a representative group.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Not my description. That's canon. Right in the description- induces a misjump. Nothing in the wording to say the ship is already in jumpspace. It's a rude, crude baseball bat clobbering a ship into a regular misjump and I'm sure that's the first description in the core book not the 'merciful' alternative. Weapons are like that.

Thank you all for pointing the book descriptor to me, I was in a hurry for an appointment and trying to read in dim light without my glasses. THAT government type actually also includes Democracy. There's the issue I was thinking about, can a galactic wide government based on representation of the people exist? In real life, distance and mode of communication restrict that form and the farther from the center of government, the less effective 'representation becomes no matter what the politicians tell you.

In a way, the United States was conceived more like the Imperium rather than a republic or democracy with each state, ideally, a sovereign entity sharing certain functions such as trade and extra-territorial defense. Even today we still see state populations acting more like insular entities than part of a whole.

To me the Imperium government type made sense based on communications, diversity and size. The original Sylean Federation was probably a Representative Democracy as each world has representatives in the Grand Senate. As the Federation expanded from a central government, it began to show increasing destabilization until Grand Duke Cleo re-envisioned the return of an Imperium decentralizing government in layers.

Tom misunderstood the Jump Projector both for function and technology. Even using the alternative Warp or Hyperspace engines still don't overcome the time and distance barrier. Even Star Trek had to almost eliminate or greatly overpower Warp Drive and subspace communication to allow the Federation to exist otherwise, as the original show attested, systems were often islands loosely linked somehow as a representative group.

The jump projector starts with the ability to misjump an object outside itself, with further refinement, perhaps a more advanced version of the Jump projector could jump an object to a specific location, in other words it becomes a Jump Gate.

A Jump Gate is a jump drive that jumps external objects outside itself to specific locations. The regular jump drive is limited by two things, there is no Jump Drive greater than Jump 6, and even if there were, the rule is, you need 10% of the displacement mass of the ship in jump fuel in order to initiate a jump. Even if you could make a Jump 8 it would require 80% of the ship's volume in Jump fuel, so no effort has been made to build such a thing, but external jump drives are under no such limitation, you can have many times the ship's volume in jump fuel to initiate a jump of whatever distance is desired. the larger the target ship and the greater the distance in parsecs of the jump the more jump fuel that is needed, And since the Jump Gate doesn't jump itself, its own volume isn't part of the equation, it remains behind jumping the target ship.

 

[crazy_cat]

A Jump Gate is a jump drive that jumps external objects outside itself to specific locations. The regular jump drive is limited by two things, there is no Jump Drive greater than Jump 6, and even if there were, the rule is, you need 10% of the displacement mass of the ship in jump fuel in order to initiate a jump. Even if you could make a Jump 8 it would require 80% of the ship's volume in Jump fuel, so no effort has been made to build such a thing, but external jump drives are under no such limitation, you can have many times the ship's volume in jump fuel to initiate a jump of whatever distance is desired. the larger the target ship and the greater the distance in parsecs of the jump the more jump fuel that is needed, And since the Jump Gate doesn't jump itself, its own volume isn't part of the equation, it remains behind jumping the target ship.

So, taking your ideas in another direction (or at least some of them) - mif long range jump gates were to exist they would need to have access to large amounts of fuel, so maybe there is also compensatory technology that allows such gates to exist within 100D limits and gravity wells - for example in low orbit around gas giants where they draw fule straight from the upper atmosphere?

Makes the gas giant a strategic point in a system and a place of adventure once again - even if the ships themselves don't need to skim fuel from it.

 

[Rick]

The problem with using the Roman Republic model is that it only ever extended to Rome and the areas of Italy immediately adjacent to Rome - everywhere else was a 'Colonia', equivalent to a Government type 6. I'm interested to see what form Tom's Republic will take.

 

[Jacqual]

What if we were to take a map of Charted Space, with the planets just as they are and posit an alternate history where a Republic was established instead of the Third Imperium. What would be required?

I believe in High Guard, the classic version at least there was something called a Jump Projector, basically a ship equipped with it should send another object into Jump Space and have it end up elsewhere. What limits a Republic is the ability to send real time information to the Capital and back, so you can have voting and elections in a reasonable time period. Now one important gadget needed to make a Republic possible is a form of FTL communication, the most conservative of which is an extrapolation of Jump technology or the Jump Projector.

A jump projector operates like a jump drive, only it jumps something outside itself and doesn't go on the trip through jump space it sends other objects on.

There is no minimum size for objects that a jump projector can project, the jump fuel is injected into the jump, the fuel tank-age and the Jump projector stay behind. This means the Jump Projector have be enormous, the rule would be that it needs 10% of the hull volume in fuel for each parsec across space that it projects the target, so if the target is 10 displacement tons in volume, to project it for Jump 100 parsecs, you would need 100 tons of jump fuel, since this doesn't have to fit onboard the 10 ton target, there is no problem with jumping this far, in a matter of a week a probe can be sent 100 parsecs with a recorded message that it plays and broadcasts upon arrival. Now a jump-100 projector is expensive, so only small objects are sent mainly for telecommunications purposes, but this would be fast enough to enable some sort of Republic to function.

I don't think that when you get all the way down to the PC level being in an Empire or a Republic would be much different, they would still have to obey laws or go to prison/jail if they get caught.

But on the aspect of FTL communication I had Jump communication that would travel 1 parsec/day with a maximum range of 10 parsecs for ship based communications longer for planet or Starport comms, never had much issue with it in campaign. It only works for data, so no high speed nuke deployment. Actual ship travel was exactly the same as game standard. Just made Intersteller fraud much harder to commit.