What I believe _is_ really broken

[GianniVacca]

I've been playing RQ2 for years, never moved to RQ3, but I did move to MRQ (mostly because I was attracted by the Second Age setting -- I was tired of the brave-Orlanthi-vs-evil-Lunar adventures).

Now the problem I have is that I really, really find there are a few parts of MRQ that I believe are definitey broken, viz:
- the combat system
- the what-happens-to-an-integrated-rune-once-the-character-dies stuff
- the rune magic system (especially when used in Glorantha)

I would like to know if anybody had devised good fixes for the above-mentioned defects.

I have seen an interesting alternative combat system (the Non Tabular Combat from Mr Qwiki) -- I would like to hear from someone who's tested it.

I haven't seen anything regarding the two other problems, the rune-related ones. In the campaign I've started to run, I've ignored rune integration, and I've used a unique skill for all rune magic spellcasting -- but then it's a God learner campaign so it's easier. I frankly do not know what I would've done in an Orlanthi or Praxian campaign.

 

[Halfbat]

Combat - I currently use the tables virtually as is but without the unfortunate downgrade-on-equal-opposed-loss rule. I'm looking at a variation of non-tabular combat which keeps things simple.

Runes - they reappear/can be reused when the character dies.

Rune Magic - Yep, we use it "as is", but tend to use Petty-Magick a bit more instead for serious runespellcasters (not meant as a plug), mainly as it focuses on fewer skills but still keeps a "domain" feel going.

 

[Ari]

For combat with the kids I've been using the following changes:

- Only 1 combat action/turn, I just adjust movement rates using the CA value (e.g. CA=1 -> -1m/turn, CA=3 -> +1m/turn).

- For the combat resolution table a successful Parry/Dodge that beats an Attack roll downgrades the Attack to a fail. If the Attack beats the Parry/Dodge then the normal "equal success" is used, i.e. weapon AP/min damage. Therefore its more or less the same except that I give the defender a bit of an edge, besides which I like being able to use weapon AP's.

Runes - I don't physically integrate runes, instead its something you might be able to be taught or have a chance to attune/integrate if you spend sufficient time in the presence of a magical embodiment of the rune.

cheers, Ari

ps: I was playing DnD with the kids, but I switched over to RQ which they now enjoy much more than DnD. They also picked up RQ skill/opposed roll stuff much more naturally than DnD, which they always struggled with.

pps: To make it easier for them I play using d20 instead of %percentile dice. i.e. 1=5%, 2=10%, etc. 1 or 2 might be a critical if you roll again and at least succeed in the roll.

 

[weasel_fierce]

- the combat system
- the what-happens-to-an-integrated-rune-once-the-character-dies stuff
- the rune magic system (especially when used in Glorantha)

Well, your definition of broken is different from mine, since I take broken to mean "actually does not work" rather than "opinions I disagree with" but for what its worth:

Combat: Armour penalties do not affect weapon skills.

Dodge avoids attack or reduces critical to normal hit.
Critical dodge avoids attack alltogether

Parry deducts double printed AP from damage, excess damage hits defender, and reduces weapon by 1 HP
Critical parry avoids attack alltogether.


Integrated rune - when you croak, the rune goes away and reappears somewhere in the world later.


Rune magic - Keep as is. I may be minority but I view Heroquest as the definition of what Gloranthan magic is (since well, Greg would know). Folk magic (from the players guide) covers the petty, everyday tricks. Divine magic, sorcery and spirit magic are all represented now with rules. Rune magic is the "innate" magic, unlocked by finding runes.

 

[GianniVacca]

Integrated rune - when you croak, the rune goes away and reappears somewhere in the world later.

I like this one. It avoids mass murder for the sake of stealing integrated runes.

 

[RosenMcStern]

So let's see: you think combat is broken and rune magic is broken. Then what is not broken in your opinion, Gianni?

Seriously,

1) Combat has some issues, as variously expressed, and there are many houserules described; pick the one you like.

2) Rune integration is the only thing that can be defined as hopelessly broken, and then only in a Gloranthan environment, because it makes ransoming captives a non viable option - no matter how many reasons you give your PCs not to kill a captured NPC, they'll just slaughter him to get his runes. This rule must be dropped if you play in Glorantha.

3) Rune Magic forces your spellcaster to learn various skills to get your standard array of spells (Countermagic, Bladesharp, Heal, etc.), and maybe some are not even taught by your cult; I think the solution might be the RQ Spellbook, if it includes enought spells connected to the most common runes (Air, Beast, Earth, etc.) as to provide your standard PCs with enough spells to be considered a spellcaster by learning only two or three different Runecastings. Basically, each cult should define three main Runes, corresponding to its Affinities in HeroQuest, and have a number of rune spells you can learn that is roughly equivalent to the HeroQuest "feats" available to acolytes. This would create a real Gloranthan feeling for Rune Magic.

It all depends on whether Bryan Steele has made a good list of how to fit the new rune spells in his Spellbook in a Gloranthan game....

 

[kintire]

2) Rune integration is the only thing that can be defined as hopelessly broken, and then only in a Gloranthan environment, because it makes ransoming captives a non viable option - no matter how many reasons you give your PCs not to kill a captured NPC, they'll just slaughter him to get his runes. This rule must be dropped if you play in Glorantha.

I'm not entirely convinced. Firstly, an important thing about MRQ is that sometimes, you will lose. Less so in a large party, but a few bad rolls can swing a fight. If you establish a policy of killing your adversaries for their runes, you will be killed in turn. Secondly, with Rune magic requiring a different skill for each rune, it is very possible to have Enough Runes. Apart from the bother of actually getting the spells; any Runecaster is likely to have their cult runes already, and there's no gain to integrating two. Where are they going to get the spells for the others? from the cult of the guy they murdered to get them? I think not...

And, of course, many people may not want them. I'm playing a sorcerer at present, and I'm having enough trouble developing that. Runes, schmoons.

Rune Magic forces your spellcaster to learn various skills to get your standard array of spells (Countermagic, Bladesharp, Heal, etc.), and maybe some are not even taught by your cult; I think the solution might be the RQ Spellbook, if it includes enought spells connected to the most common runes (Air, Beast, Earth, etc.) as to provide your standard PCs with enough spells to be considered a spellcaster by learning only two or three different Runecastings. Basically, each cult should define three main Runes, corresponding to its Affinities in HeroQuest, and have a number of rune spells you can learn that is roughly equivalent to the HeroQuest "feats" available to acolytes. This would create a real Gloranthan feeling for Rune Magic.

I'm right with you on this one though. And different spells for different cults with the same rune too!

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Now the problem I have is that I really, really find there are a few parts of MRQ that I believe are definitey broken, viz:
- the combat system
- the what-happens-to-an-integrated-rune-once-the-character-dies stuff
- the rune magic system (especially when used in Glorantha)

My take, fwiw on integrating MRQ rune magic with Glorantha as represented in prior versions of RQ. It’s more by way of a concept document than a ready to use set of rules, but hoepfully will provide some food for thought.

One of the things discussed during the Playtesting of MRQ, either on the mailing list, or in off-list conversation with Steve Perin and others was the idea that everyone would start off with one rune integrated. Probably the man rune for humans, with the elder races having eg Darkness for Uz or Plant for Aldryami. I think this would occur as part of your appropriate coming of age/tribal initiation ceremony. I forget whether this would also include the special “integration” effects (which weren’t necessarily the same as the ones in the rule book, and IIRC had increasing benefits for integrating multiple instances of the same rune) or just the ability to cast spells.

One of the things frequently suggested here is the idea that initiating to a God allows you to cast the (rune) spells associated with that god without having to separately find and integrate the runes (or alternately that initiates get given runes by the temple).

Finally add to the mix the thought that the rules for Runes and runemagic as presented are by way of being a toolkit and not the “one true way”, so there is no need to adhere literally to them, although we should probably try and preserve something of the spirit…

So, the “RUNES” in rune magic are not physical objects that can only be possessed by one person at a time, but a philosophical construct allowing those who are sufficiently attuned to them to use their powers to cast “rune magic”. Immediately we do away with the idea of “Killing someone to steal their runes” (Well except for Thanatar cultists, obviously…) and the problem of what happens to a Rune when the owner dies. Attuning to runes becomes a benefit of initiation to cults who can provide any of their cult runes, and (at a price) those of their affiliated cults. It might also be a benefit of a particular Heroquest, or something that can be achieved at appropriate locations by sacrifice of a point of POW.

RQ always had the idea of a “focus” for a spell, and the MRQ requirement that you maintain physical possession of a rune you have integrated provided a similar concept. I’d marry the two concepts like this.
To cast a rune spell you must

• (a) Know the spell
  (b) Be attuned to the appropriate rune
  (c) Make a “Runecasting<specific rune>” skill role

There are big bonuses for having/big penalties for not having physical representations of the runes in your possession (carved stones, tattoos, a “fetish bag” whatever). These items can be taken from a captive to restrict their magic use, but are not necessarily irreplaceable if you manage to escape. (You might need a regrow limb if you chose to have your runes tattooed of course).

Finally, I’d need to go through the spell list(s) and redo the runic associations to better fit (my understanding of) Glorantha. This might involve some spells being available from more than one rune, and/or some cults knowing alternative versions of a spell involving other rune(s)

 

[B_Steele]

...no matter how many reasons you give your PCs not to kill a captured NPC, they'll just slaughter him to get his runes. This rule must be dropped if you play in Glorantha.

Honestly, I have to utterly disagree. This all depends on the strength of the roleplayers and the degree of control that the GM has. In my local Glorantha game my players have let two rune-laden NPC enemies free after ransom information was given, and one even spent a Hero Point to save the life of the Runecasting Enlo that was just trying to kill them (to find out what was really going on with the ambush).

Making a blanket statement that our version of Rune Magic can't work in Glorantha is basically saying that all RPers are just powergamers that are looking out for their next piece of treasure...which is exactly the opposite of player that I have generally found playing RuneQuest: Glorantha.

All I'm saying is that a good GM and set of players can make it work very well, and abandoning it without seeing it function is a big mistake, in my honest opinion.

Back to work,
Bry

 

[RosenMcStern]

All I'm saying is that a good GM and set of players can make it work very well, and abandoning it without seeing it function is a big mistake, in my honest opinion.

I am not against using Runes and Runecasting skill, I prefer this model to the old Spirit Magic and the idiocy of the POW x 5% roll.

I do not find it hard to believe that you, as any good GM, can handle the potential trouble of power hungry players wanting to kill for runes instead of ransoming, as you have shown by using two whole pages in the PG to Glorantha to explain ransoming to newbies - a useful section. Good GMs have handled broken rules for decades with their skill and the beauty of the setting. Heck, I have GMed even Marvel SuperHeroes with 16-year-old powergamers in the party and forced them to stay in role, and had fun doing it! But the point here is that this rule had no real reason to exist in the first place.

It was equally easy to write in the rules "A character can voluntarily forfeit an integrated rune by succeeding in a Persistence/Runecasting/Whatever roll", with no damage to the elegance of the magic system. Writing down that a defeated NPC (or PC) cannot ransom his life by voluntarily and honourably forfeiting one of his runes was a very bad move. More so because this tight coupling of the death of the Rune Touched and the availability of the rune adds nothing to the game: Shamanism works equally well using charms that have the same casting mechanics but not the integration mechanics.

Armor skill penalty has been equally contested, for instance, and most experienced GMs simply drop it altogether, but at least it gives less seasoned GMs a good way to prevent their PCs running around the town in full plate, so it is, in the end, a beneficial rule that you are free to ignore once you are skilled enough to handle the matter with the classic "The town watch starts looking at you like troublemakers" argument. Please show me a point where the "Integrated till death" rule has a similar beneficial effect.

 

[RosenMcStern]

If you establish a policy of killing your adversaries for their runes, you will be killed in turn.

I am a strong believer in the ransoming system, the problem is that the ransom you have at home should be worth much more than the advantage your opponent has by killing you. If you are carrying $20,000 in runes, upon which you cannot place user condition like you do with magic objects, what sort of ransom should you have at home to show Sven the Vadrudi raider that it is to his advantage not to kill you? Sure, your GM will tell you to treat your captives well and reward you with a more "friendly" treatment on the part of the captor (I would be particularly cruel in this case :twisted: ) but this is not a good reason. Players that do not spare their captives for roleplaying reasons cannot be really scared by this thought.

Secondly, with Rune magic requiring a different skill for each rune, it is very possible to have Enough Runes. Apart from the bother of actually getting the spells; any Runecaster is likely to have their cult runes already, and there's no gain to integrating two. Where are they going to get the spells for the others? from the cult of the guy they murdered to get them? I think not...

Most spells, notably the most powerful, require a second rune, usually stasis or mastery or infinity. Even though you already have the main rune for a spell, getting the secondary one, that is usually not tied to your cult, might be a matter of looting. And in this case the spell is taught by your cult.

 

[TRose]

One rule I came up with for rune integration for Glorantha is that Gods can grant their runes to their follower. For example Orlanth can grant use of Air , Mastery and Motion to any initiates and higher. You have to perform a quest to receive the rune but they are often simple ones the local priest can send you on and then you will receive the God's mark . For example to receive the Air rune , you might have to scale a very high peak and make an offering to Orlanth. then spend a day and a night exposed to the winds. After doing so you will then have an Air rune marked on your forehead and in effect you are the air rune( after all the rules say a rune can be any object so why not a human)
After some one becomes a Rune Priest/Rune lord I will then allow then to get Runes from those cults that are considered allied to their God to grant them similar runes if they perform a quest for said allied God.

 

[Quire]

I am not against using Runes and Runecasting skill, I prefer this model to the old Spirit Magic and the idiocy of the POW x 5% roll.

What was idiotic about the POW x 5% roll?

Please note that I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely interested what you mean by this. And the query is loaded in terms of what I'm doing with the RuneQuest SRD.

- Q

 

[RosenMcStern]

One rule I came up with for rune integration for Glorantha is that Gods can grant their runes to their follower.

Almost everybody uses such a houserule, just like the "successful Dodge downgrades attack success" in RQ3. When all feel the need to change something, then there has to be a basic flaw in it. The whole subject of runes is certainly not broken, mind me, but the integration mechanics does not fit Glorantha well.

What was idiotic about the POW x 5% roll?

POW is the characteristic that changes more often, especially in RQ2/3. Tying a success percentage to it means that you have to refigure the skill roll very often. Besides, since even theist magic users in Glorantha use battle magic (formerly spirit magic, now called rune magic) rather than divine magic in their everyday life, using POW to acquire divine magic hurt the priest's ability to cast battle magic a lot, to the point that many people used to boost their POW to 16-18 and relied on their 100%+ spirit magic casting skill instead of learning divine spells. Now someone could argue that a good roleplayer does not do this (I didn't), but your average player will usually do this under RQ2 or RQ3. Not to mention the fact that I once saw a Kyger Litor shaman dropping to POW 3 because of divine intervention: the poor fella still had some magic points to fuel his spells because of his fetch, but his casting skill with spirit magic (remember that KL priests are basically spirit practitioners) dropped below 10% :shock: . Is it logic and sensible that your character's main skill might drop this way?

In MRQ the effect of dedicating POW to divine magic upon your Runecasting, which is now a "real" skill, is lessened. If you acquire 10 Magnitude divine magic, your Runecasting drops by 10%, which is acceptable after all. In RQ3 that would have been 60%!

 

[kintire]

I am a strong believer in the ransoming system, the problem is that the ransom you have at home should be worth much more than the advantage your opponent has by killing you. If you are carrying $20,000 in runes, upon which you cannot place user condition like you do with magic objects, what sort of ransom should you have at home to show Sven the Vadrudi raider that it is to his advantage not to kill you?

Worth 20,000 to who? I get the impression that in Glorantha Runes are not so rare that an experienced raider won't have the ones he needs for his suite of spells. Why take more? sure, you can sell them but why not just take the money?

 

[Quire]

POW is the characteristic that changes more often, especially in RQ2/3. Tying a success percentage to it means that you have to refigure the skill roll very often.

Ah, I'm with ya! Thanks for clarifying that, Rosen.

- Q

 

[Rurik]

Combat: Combat has never been broken per say. It was confusing in the initial book and the updates haven't helped much.
1. As printed in the core and Hawkmoon books - two roll system actually works very well, but the two rolls turn people off.
2. First players update. Worst 'official' version. Dodge and parrying with weapons practically useless - shield is almost required.
3. Second players update - better than first, only now shield is practically useless (usually no better for parrying - excepting some cases with criticals, but takes an extra improvement roll to use a shield over just parrying with your weapon, which is hardly worth).

As a result many people just use house rules of their own devise. A bunch of forum members brainstormed on a thread a while back and came up with the following solution on Mr. Qwiki:

http://www.justanotherwebsite.net/mrqwiki/index.php/Non_Tabular_Combat

Runicicde (the act of killing to get ones runes): While I am in the camp of believing that the current rules are not as big a problem as some make it out to be, there are obviously many people who believe it is. The two solutions I like best are:
1. To make runes 'die' with the person who integrated it, so it cannot be used by another.
2. Make rune integration not tie a specific rune individually to a user. Once you integrate a rune of a given type - say a man rune for example - you have learned the secrets of the man rune and can use any man rune to cast with - not just the one you integrated. And a given rune may be integrated by multiple people. I would also tie the bonus for being rune touched to achieving a certain level in the Runecasting (say 40% or 50%)skill for that rune to prevent people from passing a rune around and all integrating it just for the bonus (though it still costs a permanent POW). I also kind of like the idea of no longer needing a physical rune once you reach a certain level of runecasting - say 80% or 90%.

The second method also gets around what I see as a big problem with the RAW on rune integration - stealing runes. If a person loses their integrated man rune (someone takes it and tosses it into the ocean) they cannot ever cast spells that require that rune again. You can't unintegrate it (at least easily) so you can't integrate a second one and can't cast without it.

Though honestly it is not practical to integrate more than a few rune for the following reasons:
1. It takes 1 POW each Rune. POW gain is much harder than previous RQ versions.
2. Runecasting takes Improvement rolls. At a suggested 3 per adventure you can only ever get good at a few runes. You need to think about what spells you want to master and work towards those runes.
3. If you have too many runes people will kill you just to take them. :twisted:

Rune Magic in Glorantha: I use the system as is but use Folk magic liberally. Everyone can use a folk magic bladesharp or heal or protection up to 2 points. All cults teach folk magic versions of their spells (up to 2 points). If you want a better version you need to integrate the rune. Magic is common, but there is still benefit to mastering a few runes.

That's my two bolgs.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Combat: Combat has never been broken per say. It was confusing in the initial book and the updates haven't helped much.

Amen. This system works, basically, and is a definite improvement over the old SRs in terms of playability, although RQ3 was a bit more realistic. The problem is that there are rule sections that are houseruled by everyone, like it happened with Dodge and Fatigue in RQ3, and they have not been fixed in the updates, so there are rules that, basically, no one uses "as written".

Runicicde (the act of killing to get ones runes): While I am in the camp of believing that the current rules are not as big a problem as some make it out to be

I agree with you and Bryan Steele that a good GM can avoid it. The only thing is that a good rule should help the GM achieve roleplaying over powerplaying, not make him struggle to give a reason to act the way their characters are supposed to, in this case allowing honourable surrender (and cashing in the ransom ).

1. To make runes 'die' with the person who integrated it, so it cannot be used by another.

This is only possible if runes are somehow "generated" by worshiping at the appropriate temple, otherwise the original amount of runes left over by the Gods war would have been exausted generations ago. But this is very Gloranthan, and a solution I like.

2. Make rune integration not tie a specific rune individually to a user.

Fine, too, except that it is not attuned with the spirit of having the Rune as a physical object, which is one of the big changes introduced by MRQ. In RQ3 we had focuses for battle magic, but few GMs enforced their use during play. Having runes as objects is a worthy addition to the game, my only [big] complaint is the "to the death" binding described in the core rules, that does not fit Glorantha very well, even in the Second Age.

If a person loses their integrated man rune (someone takes it and tosses it into the ocean) they cannot ever cast spells that require that rune again. You can't unintegrate it (at least easily) so you can't integrate a second one and can't cast without it.

IIRC there was a post months ago that clarified that you can integrate a second rune of the same kind.

Runecasting takes Improvement rolls. At a suggested 3 per adventure you can only ever get good at a few runes. You need to think about what spells you want to master and work towards those runes.

Rurik, remember that most "big" spells take two/three runes to cast, although the Runecasting skill is the same. A caster that specialized in three Runecasting skills may need as many as ten integrated runes to have a decent array of magic spells.

3. If you have too many runes people will kill you just to take them. :twisted:

Ah, so you admit that there _is_ a problem

Rune Magic in Glorantha: I use the system as is but use Folk magic liberally. Everyone can use a folk magic bladesharp or heal or protection up to 2 points. All cults teach folk magic versions of their spells (up to 2 points). If you want a better version you need to integrate the rune. Magic is common, but there is still benefit to mastering a few runes.

Fine, and in line with what happens in HeroQuest. Folk Magic = Common Magic, and Cult Runes = Cult Affinities. I still want to see more spells tied to the basic runes of PC cults like Air or Earth. But then there should be a more widespread description of the most common folk magic spells, and which cults do teach them. Also note that folk magic, at least as described in the PG, is far less effective than Rune Magic. A combat spell, frex, only givest you +5% to hit, not +1 damage like Bladesharp. And healing is supposed to speed up natural healing a lot, not to close the wound at once.

 

[B_Steele]

IIRC there was a post months ago that clarified that you can integrate a second rune of the same kind.

You are correct. In fact, when Spellbook comes out I can think of about 30 different reasons why you not only can but should integrate multiple runes of the same type.

8)

-Bry

 

[RosenMcStern]

You are correct. In fact, when Spellbook comes out I can think of about 30 different reasons why you not only can but should integrate multiple runes of the same type.

I am in fact waiting for the Spellbook, among other tomes, before venturing in a Second Age campaign.

However, this means that the whole "allow cult members to cast spells connected to their god's rune as if they had integrated it" thing that many houserule no longer works if you have spells that requite two instances of the same rune. Good idea, BTW. Are there any spells that require three runes or more? :twisted: