What can a shaman do in a fight?

[Mongoose Pete]

I hope Pete Nash won't mind me copying a small part of the response to my feedback for RQII. I had playtested the rules (I was in the second, later playtest set) by running the PCs through The Rainbow Mounds. One of the PCs had a salamander spirit and I sent him several questions about it that emerged from play.

I would rule that when the PC incarnates his salamander, he's going to suffer the Midas Touch. I.e. everything he's wearing or touching is going to heat, scorch and eventually ignite. Whilst he may be immune to the flames, his environment and equipment won't. Riding may become a little tricky, as might be walking inside a wooden building or wielding a weapon.

No problem. If it helps everyone's comprehension about the intent and potential of particular rules then feel free.

 

[PhilHibbs]

To be honest Phil, you’re not doing yourself any favours.

Yeah, I don't know why I'm finding this topic so troubling. Sorry.

It’ll only take a few minor house-rules, ten minutes work.

I wish I were so optimistic. I want the system to work, and I don't want to change it any more than is necessary because there's a lot of great stuff both in the MRQ2 book and the S&P articles, I just can't see how to make it work.

 

[ThatGuy]

Maybe a different approach Phil?

What would you like to see?

What do you miss & what do you like of the new stuff?

Maybe folks can help you tweak stuff so that it works well for your setting

 

[PhilHibbs]

Maybe a different approach Phil?

I think I should take a break from this topic. I don't have a player using the rules, and if I bring in a shamanic NPC either as an ally or enemy then I can wing it and go with what feels right at the time.

 

[Mugen]

He can cast a Disruption 4 spell, (4D3 damage, armour does not count).

Though I really don't like Disruption being Progressive...

Note that it is not 4D3 damage, but 1D3 damage to 4 locations.
As there are no Generic Hit Points in MRQ2, the difference is important.

 

[preacher65]

And, for the second time, the actual rule, in fact the only rule as printed in the book is
"a spirit magician can invest their powers within his own body."
That is powers plural. The example list makes the mistake of briefly summarizing the most notable power for different elements rather than listing all the possible powers that a given elemental might have.

Firstly, I'm really finding both threads on Spirit Magic helpful. I had a lot of trouble understanding how to use Spirit Magic in-game, as an adventuring player character, and the threads have helped as much as the S&P articles. The articles were great, but as well as answering questions they also raised some. One was the whole thing around elemental spirits.

I don't mean to be rude (really!), but I think the answer above is a little disingenuous. The MRQ2 rules talk about a spirit magician gaining a "burning touch" from embodying a salamander, from which I took the strong implication that his hands (or even his entire body) are surround by flame. That's greatly different to becoming a living flame, which is my understanding of the new rules clarifications. If he becomes a salamader, why not simply say that? So this has seemed like a change in the rules, and I hope you can understand why it's generated surprise and confusion in a few people.

If I become a salamander by embodying one, I can't talk to anyone, I can't touch anything without setting fire to it, and so on. So while this ability can be powerful at certain times, it's also inherently limiting.

Why is this troubling me? Well, it has seemed to me that most effects from bound spirits are self-buffs, with embodying elementals being a possible exception. With these new changes/clarifications, I'm trying to figure out how I can use spirit magic to affect other people and the world around me, particularly in combat situations - but also in what we could call "general adventuring". There's a conceptual barrier here, and I really don't understand why I'm having so much trouble pushing through it. I've been roleplaying for over 30 years, across a myriad of systems, and have never struggled so much with a set of rules as I have with this. :? (This isn't intended as a criticism, just a cry of frustration and a plea for help. I'm getting close to the point of feeling I need to retire my character and start again, but I really don't want to do that.)

To clarify - I'm playing a starting character (we're still really in our first "adventure", albeit a fairly long one), so I'm a Spirit Worshipper. I'm not surprised that as a starting character I'm not powerful, I'm just trying to think of what direction I should be taking the character in.

I need to read through the rules, the articles, and these threads again, and hope it all falls into place. But any insight on if and how spirit magic can be used to create externalised effects would be very welcome.

 

[Deleriad]

Why is this troubling me? Well, it has seemed to me that most effects from bound spirits are self-buffs, with embodying elementals being a possible exception. With these new changes/clarifications, I'm trying to figure out how I can use spirit magic to affect other people and the world around me, particularly in combat situations - but also in what we could call "general adventuring".

I think there are two issues at stake here.

I can't speak for Pete Nash, the author, directly but it is my understanding that a shaman is not meant to be physical or combat magician and that in many ways a shaman's greatest strengths are in information and, naturally, in defending allies against threats from the spirit plane.

The shaman has collateral powers against physical opponents, the most obvious being the use of attack spirits and his fetch. However sending curse, disease and bane spirits against opponents is generally something that the *bad guys* do. On the whole shamans aren't designed to cast 'artillery magic" but a fetch or a spirit contact or ally can usually incapacitate a single unprepared opponent very easily.

There is a specific issue with elemental spirits in that the description in the core book consists of just two paragraphs and clearly confuses more than it helps. It's meant to say that when you embody an elemental spirit you get all its powers, both for good and ill. Remember the key statement from earlier in the chapter: spirit powers are persistent, i.e. they are "always on." Embodying a spirit to gain its powers therefore is going to give you an "always on" spirit. Although this does follow from the logic of the whole system, it is poorly communicated. It's a general rule of thumb that people pay more attention to examples than they do to the underlying grammar and the example powers though correct seem to imply that you get just one of them. That's why we spent a lot of time in the article trying to make it crystal clear how it was meant to work.

That all said, there are various ways you can make shamans useful as 'general adventurers.' The most obvious strength is their ability to scout out locations on the spirit plane. If a location doesn't have defences then it's in trouble. A shaman also makes a terrifying assassin, able to creep into most places, discorporate the target and do what he likes. On an actual battlefield, a fetch can quickly possess an opponent and then cause confusion by using the body to attack friends. If he has time to prepare he can bring spirit allies with him, have an ancestor possess him to give him the skills he needs and so on. There is always the option of embodying an elemental. It needs to be done carefully but unlike a priest, a shaman doesn't need a body of elemental present.

Finally though, the system is somewhat 'old school' because there are so many things you could do with spirits that it should be more a case of players asking themselves "how can I do this" and coming up with something believable. For example, rather than binding an elemental spirit and embodying it, maybe you could gain one as an ally or contact. Use Spirit Walking to summon it, ask it to possess an opponent then light the blue touch paper. To an outsider the shaman appears to chant and point, an opponent falls over, starts to writhe and smoke on the ground then bursts into a huge fireball which then proceeds to head off down a corridor. Maybe a GM might say "it doesn't say in the rules that an elemental spirit can do that" at which point you need to remember that the rules are just a starting point.

Finally, do remember this from S&P 90.

It is possible for spirit magicians to gain elemental spirits as allies in which case the magician cannot embody the spirit but can summon it to the mortal world through Spirit Walking and have the spirit manifest within the appropriate volume of material.

This was put in to explain exactly how it is possible to have elementals attack opponents without requiring embodiment.

The spirit magic rules are not a spell list with prescribed, limited effects. They're a tool kit. They contain everything from the very simple (bind a nature spirit to give you plus one step to your damage bonus) to the use of spirit allies to come up with the most creative uses you can think of.

So to go full circle and betray my lack of knowledge of MMO terminology, a shaman in combat is something like a striker who can take out single opponents from range. He's the best scout in the game. He also has tremendous powers of control, can go nuclear with elementals, and can be an effective warrior with ancestors and/or combat buffs.

 

[preacher65]

Thanks for the reply. One of the amazing things about this forum is the willingness of the authors of various books and articles to engage with players. It's precious and valuable.

I take many of your points and will give them some more thought. I suspect that my dilemma over what role I can take in recent games has two causes: one is that I'm not a shaman yet, and only have a guardian spirit in a fetish, no fetch, and can't discorporate. From my understanding, I can't start the game as a shaman, and it looks like it will be a long road to get to that level. But with a lot of my points put towards spirit magic skills, it feels like I don't have too much else to offer the party except (very) modest scores in Influence and Healing. Plus my innate charm and good looks.

Being a shaman looks like it will be a lot of fun. Being Spirit Worshipper aiming at Shaman feels a little like I've put all my points into things that will take a long time to reap rewards. Perhaps the other players feel the same way about their characters - though the sorcerer seems to be having a whale of a time. I don't want or need ultimate power, just to find a useful role.

The other difficulty is that the problems of my role in combat have been exacerbated by the fact we were several players short that week, so when we did finally end up in combat (and it's not a combat-heavy game), it simply wasn't possible to take that kind of role. I'm sure things will change as the character grows, it's just difficult at the moment to know what kinds of spirits to bind, or seek as allies.

I think the best thing I can do right now is go through the rules and articles again, having read and absorbed what's been posted here. There's been some good stuff here that will inform how I read the rules. For example, elemental spirits other than the usual sylphs, salamanders, etc. is an interesting take. I think a fresh look at the rules now I've read all this will help.

Thanks again.

 

[Deleriad]

T
Being a shaman looks like it will be a lot of fun. Being Spirit Worshipper aiming at Shaman feels a little like I've put all my points into things that will take a long time to reap rewards. Perhaps the other players feel the same way about their characters - though the sorcerer seems to be having a whale of a time.

Just to clarify. Is your idea for your character to purse the spiritual path of becoming a shaman or is it that he comes from a spirit worshipping background but is more interested in becoming a great hero. I assume the former. The other issue is what kind of game you're in. Is it the type that's run pretty much using the rules as *limits* to what you can do or are the rules a starting point?

I see your character is a horse-riding nomad from somewhere. If you haven't already done it, I would talk to the GM about having a spirit contact or ally from your background. That spirit might be the reason why you have ventured far away. It could be almost any kind of spirit that makes sense. Probably Intensity 2.

If that's not possible, let the GM know that you're actively looking for chances to interact with spirits and hope to gain a contact or ally through play. This should give the GM the opportunity to dangle plot hooks.

Finally, look for chances to use spirit walking. There's a really good 101 days of RQII thread on rpg.net (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=512391) from Griffin Island where a PC spirit magician uses Spirit Walking to really good effect. Your character will probably see spirits everywhere and you can use Spirit Walking to really good effect to gain information and so on.

As well as that, don't forget your Common Magic. Sorcery and Divine Magic don't work that well with Common Magic because they use up the Magic Points. Spirit Magic actually combines quite nicely. A simple Befuddle is still one of the most lethal spells in the game.

None of these will ever make your PC a brilliant warrior so if you get stuck short-handed in a combat situation you will have problems.

And you're right to say that for a spirit magician the promotion to shaman and gaining of a fetch is a huge upgrade, far more so than an initiate being promoted to acolyte.

 

[preacher65]

Definitely the former - becoming a shaman. I played one in AHRQ3 (not Glorantha though) and had to give him up quite quickly, because he was overly powerful - the way bound spirits were handled in those days made PC shamans unbalanced, at least in our game. So I loved the new take on shamanism and dived in, but found it a little bit difficult to get a handle on what is and isn't possible with the new rules. As I've said, the articles and threads here have really helped, but I'm still hungry for ideas, so appreciate the feedback.

We're kind of in the middle rules-wise - the rules are there for a reason, but the GM is open to new ideas if it improves the game. I'll definitely talk to him about a spirit contact or ally - I haven't defined the ones from my background rolls, and I think he'd be open to having spirits as contacts rather than people. I'm also just beginning to get a feel for how Spirit Walking can be useful, so will check out that article.

And you're right that I shouldn't overlook Common Magic, I just need to expand my spell list a bit. The campaign is still new, so I'm unsure how character advancement will work in practice, but in theory I'm guessing I'll have to be careful how I spend those IRs.

I don't expect to ever be a great warrior - but for those times when the more combat oriented characters are "guarding the horses" (i.e. their players aren't present), a nature spirit or two might give me a chance of holding my own.

 

[Deleriad]

The campaign is still new, so I'm unsure how character advancement will work in practice, but in theory I'm guessing I'll have to be careful how I spend those IRs.

I would recommend trying to acquire some spirits during play providing your GM is amenable to it. E.g. say your raiding a troll warren and there are loads of beetle spirits about, keep an eye open for one that could you capture and bind in a pre-made fetish to give you say an AP boost. Or even bind it to a single future service. The hard limit for your character is CHA/4 in spirits. I personally play that all allies, contacts, bound spirits and spirits bound to a single future use count against that limit (it prevents acquisitive players building spirit armies) but I also encourage spirit magicians to gain spirits during play if possible. That way you can save your IRs for other advancements.

One effect of this is that spirit magicians spend a lot of time dealing with the spirit plane and spirit walking. As a GM I reckon this is great because it means players are delivering all sorts of future plot developments.

 

[cerebro]

Long term the Self-buffs of the Shaman can make it quite a difficult fighter to deal with. Just put you improvements rolls in a weapon skill. You will catch up with the fighter of the group,and then be better because of the buffs.

 

[cerebro]

What can a shaman do in a fight?...complain!