A shaman isn't going to be much good at combat by themselves. They will have put their best stats in INT, POW, and CHA and so their STR, CON, SIZ and maybe DEX aren't going to be all that good. Obviously Spirit Walking and Spirit Binding are going to be maxed out, and assuming a couple of other "responsible member of the community" skills such as healing or instruction, shamans tend to end up fairly light on combat skills. As a dedicated magical class like a priest or sorceror, they should have some magical resources to call on in a fight. What are they, and what are some example use cases? While the sorceror would be casting Wrack and taking out five enemies in a single combat round, or Form/Set Metal on their armor to weld them into statues, or Dominate Pagan to make them all run away, what might a shaman be doing?
What can a shaman do in a fight?
- Thread starter PhilHibbs
- Start date
Ok.
So I've played a couple of spirit magic types and here are my OPINIONS.
#1: if he is JUST a shaman he's gonna need time to buff his player up, at which point he may be lethal. But caught flat footed, a simple shaman can have a difficult time fighting off a group. However, if he has a fetch, he really need only to hold his own against 2 of three attackers while his fetch possesses the third attacker, at which point the attackers should be surprised when their friend turns on them and tries viciously to kill them without attempting to parry or dodge attacks. So, 3 or less attackers and a shaman can handle 'em pretty well, dice willing.
#2- As a WARRIOR that happens to have a strong spirit aspect- he can be VERY lethal. Simple spirits that allow damage mod step ups and bonus CMs, bundled with a night vision spirit (for example)- let alone a bonus CA- make this guy not only a battlefield terror but a GM nightmare as well (suddenly, the -20% for darkness just isn't applicable to this one guy that goes around killing all of your baddies). If he has integrated a Sylph (for example) he can make a strong gust that acts as a shimmer spell (I always loved that spell), or physically move enemies- potentially into each others attacks.
But the discorporation / possession peice is the toughie for Shamans. They can quickly kill the sorcerer that is still wracking, or smothering, or whatever. Possession of enemies to fight other enemies can also be a huge point of confusion (especially if the contingency is unanticipated).
Those are a few ways.
So I've played a couple of spirit magic types and here are my OPINIONS.
#1: if he is JUST a shaman he's gonna need time to buff his player up, at which point he may be lethal. But caught flat footed, a simple shaman can have a difficult time fighting off a group. However, if he has a fetch, he really need only to hold his own against 2 of three attackers while his fetch possesses the third attacker, at which point the attackers should be surprised when their friend turns on them and tries viciously to kill them without attempting to parry or dodge attacks. So, 3 or less attackers and a shaman can handle 'em pretty well, dice willing.
#2- As a WARRIOR that happens to have a strong spirit aspect- he can be VERY lethal. Simple spirits that allow damage mod step ups and bonus CMs, bundled with a night vision spirit (for example)- let alone a bonus CA- make this guy not only a battlefield terror but a GM nightmare as well (suddenly, the -20% for darkness just isn't applicable to this one guy that goes around killing all of your baddies). If he has integrated a Sylph (for example) he can make a strong gust that acts as a shimmer spell (I always loved that spell), or physically move enemies- potentially into each others attacks.
But the discorporation / possession peice is the toughie for Shamans. They can quickly kill the sorcerer that is still wracking, or smothering, or whatever. Possession of enemies to fight other enemies can also be a huge point of confusion (especially if the contingency is unanticipated).
Those are a few ways.
Against other magic users he can use his fetch and guardian spirits to block spells and then either discorporate them or send in some more hostile spirits to attack them. He will also know some common magic spells as well, so he could use those to help out in a fight.
Direct physical fights are probably best avoided, as for most specialist magic users, but he can keep himself safe with nature spirits granting extra AP and/or defensive combat manoeuvres. He could take cover behind a wind spirit from missile attacks, or an ice spirit to make the ground treacherous. Maybe he could use a nature spirit to fly away to a defensive position, or hide himself with a camouflage ability from a nature spirit, or squirt his enemies with cobra venom, or a beetles acid spray attack or a skunks foul spray, a basilisk spirits stare, a krashkids spirits pratzim attack, a ghouls spirits hideous demoralising howl, a scorpions sting...
Remember a combat manoeuvre granting spirit allows that as an extra combat manoeuvre each time he succeeds in an attack or parry on top of any he gains normally. Also gaining an extra CA or two from a spirit can make him lethal with a damage boosting or combat manoeuvre spirit embodied - he simply defends himself for a few CA's then hits his foe, who has now run out of CA's to defend himself, and blam, Quarterstaff of Doom.
A Minotaur spirit granting a bonus to unarmed or a couple of levels of boosted damage modifier could be a nasty surprise to a bunch of thieves in a back alley when he punches them through a wall.
Elemental spirits are pretty lethal in combat too. He can embody one and attack just as an elemental would. The little old bloke with a stick suddenly transforms into a raging inferno who wants to cook your spleen and serve it to you on a plate.
He needs to have a set of spirits ready to use to defend himself from magical and physical attack, and a second set ready to use to counter attack or escape. He needs to also use the advantages and strengths granted to him by his spirit tradition.
The key to being a shaman is preparation and adaptability. He also needs to be on the constant look out for a better spirit to replace a weaker one he uses and he should seek to make as many spirit allies as he can, as these do not require him to use his CHA to control and can be summoned to help out with careful forethought.
The shaman has one advantage other magic users often lack - complete surprise on how he will attack you. He's not restricted to a spell list, just the bounds of his spirit tradition and his imagination in using it's spirits.
Direct physical fights are probably best avoided, as for most specialist magic users, but he can keep himself safe with nature spirits granting extra AP and/or defensive combat manoeuvres. He could take cover behind a wind spirit from missile attacks, or an ice spirit to make the ground treacherous. Maybe he could use a nature spirit to fly away to a defensive position, or hide himself with a camouflage ability from a nature spirit, or squirt his enemies with cobra venom, or a beetles acid spray attack or a skunks foul spray, a basilisk spirits stare, a krashkids spirits pratzim attack, a ghouls spirits hideous demoralising howl, a scorpions sting...
Remember a combat manoeuvre granting spirit allows that as an extra combat manoeuvre each time he succeeds in an attack or parry on top of any he gains normally. Also gaining an extra CA or two from a spirit can make him lethal with a damage boosting or combat manoeuvre spirit embodied - he simply defends himself for a few CA's then hits his foe, who has now run out of CA's to defend himself, and blam, Quarterstaff of Doom.
A Minotaur spirit granting a bonus to unarmed or a couple of levels of boosted damage modifier could be a nasty surprise to a bunch of thieves in a back alley when he punches them through a wall.
Elemental spirits are pretty lethal in combat too. He can embody one and attack just as an elemental would. The little old bloke with a stick suddenly transforms into a raging inferno who wants to cook your spleen and serve it to you on a plate.
He needs to have a set of spirits ready to use to defend himself from magical and physical attack, and a second set ready to use to counter attack or escape. He needs to also use the advantages and strengths granted to him by his spirit tradition.
The key to being a shaman is preparation and adaptability. He also needs to be on the constant look out for a better spirit to replace a weaker one he uses and he should seek to make as many spirit allies as he can, as these do not require him to use his CHA to control and can be summoned to help out with careful forethought.
The shaman has one advantage other magic users often lack - complete surprise on how he will attack you. He's not restricted to a spell list, just the bounds of his spirit tradition and his imagination in using it's spirits.
Vulnerable, though. No parrying weapon, if you take the S&P interpretation.Vagni said:
There isn't much of the latter, you can get 2AP from a Magnitude 2 spirit but that's not a lot. It stacks with Protection though, she might have enough armour to be able to take a few hits.Vagni said:
PhilHibbs said:
True. I think you need to be creative if you're a shaman. Toe-to-toe fighting is not a good idea at all against a decent fighter. The best tactics are to keep your distance and wear them down.
Animal/creature traits are often the best source of dangerous surprise attacks a shaman can use. A lions leap attack for example, or any short ranged attack a creature may possess, such as spit, striking or breath attacks, maybe defensive traits or bonuses to evade are also possibilities.
Tribal spirits are often a good source of skill boosting at virtually no risk. They are automatically friendly to you if you're from the same tribe and they can grant a +10% bonus per intensity to a skill such as a weapon skill or evade.
So an intensity 3 tribal spirit (easily obtainable by spending 1 IP and gaining the extra -20% to the minimum Spirit Binding skill this allows along with the automatic -20% you get for it being friendly, all as per the first S&P article) means that a shaman with a Spirit Binding skill of 81% or more can automatically bind it. For 2 IP's you could make that an intensity 4 spirit with a skill of 81% required, for 3IP's the skill requirement drops to 61% for that intensity 4 spirit etc.
An intensity 4 tribal spirit could grant you +40% in an appropriate tribal combat skill. You only have to have a modest base in such a skill for this to make a huge difference. Suddenly that pitiful axe or spear skill goes from 35% to 75% when you embody the spirit.
If you're a shaman out looking for a fight then allowing a warrior ancestor spirit to possess you is your best bet.
Don't forget that a shamans fetch can also cast the shamans common magic as well, so it can heal him or use his other defensive and aggressive spells while he concentrates on using his spirits.
Shamans aren't really geared up for physical combat, but they can pack a few surprises as well.
My vision of how a shaman has traditionally operated is, she carries a bunch of spirits around and sends them to attack people. I think that's the root cause of the problems I'm having getting used to how shamanism works now. She can't send elementals at people any more, or fear or madness spirits. Well, she can use the latter, but they are one-use now and therefore not worth spending time or resources on. Most spirits are self-buff spirits, and as you said shamans shouldn't be getting into toe-to-toe fights so all those extra AP, CM, CA, DM aren't really playing to a shaman's strengths.Vagni said:
*Edit* Oh, and I don't remember any spirits granting extra CAs, I'd say that a bonus CA is an order of magnitude more powerful than a bonus AP.
*Edit* And, those traits like spit or breath attacks all need skills to use and fundamentally present no advantage over, say, a sling skill.
I still think that +1CA is massively more powerful than 2AP, even more so for +2CA vs 3AP. On the other hand, I think that means that the +2AP is underpowered rather than +1CA being overpowered. A sorceror can fairly easily give +1 or +2 CA as well as +lots to skills by enhancing characteristics. Most military orders have Enhance DEX or STR or INT or some combination thereof.
PhilHibbs said:
There's nothing to stop most shamans using pain or fear spirits, as these are fairly neutral to most cults, they can bind them and can release them to attack then try to command them back into their binding. In fact, as you've said before, any spirit with the discorporation trait can be used to attack someone, even if its just a runny nose spirit.
I guess the issue is the whole being dragged off to the spirit plane to fight it out thing. This is quite a change from previous versions of RQ and how they handled spirit combat, so I can understand some peoples reservations about it. It would be easy to house rule it differently if you were uncomfortable with that. That said I never liked the old version of spirit combat, it just seemed wrong.
Perhaps a good compromise would be too assume the whole spirit combat tales place in an instant of mortal time. So as soon is someone is attacked, you roll the entire spirit combat out and then pop back to the mortal plane to manifest the results and a lost CA (or go 'ugg, that was weird...' and carry on as if nothing had happened).
Another possibility I'm exploring at the moment is semi-corporeal spirits with an almost physical or energy type attack that is made on the mortal plane. So imagine a suffocation spirit smothering some one, or a cold spirit causing cold damage...the attack is still spiritual but would take place on the mortal plane as the results are physical, a little like a haunt.
My understanding from the S&P article is that the fetish has to be broken in order for the spirit to return to the Spirit Plane and hopefully attack the intended target.Vagni said:
Oh, like an elemental that can suffocate or burn people? Oh, wait, they've been nerfed. So, you want to invent something that functions very like what elementals used to.... hm, why not call them "elementals" and put things back how they were? And, I'm in favour of reverting shamanic integration to how it is described in MRQ2, that a shaman can manifest a single appropriate ability from the elemental rather than fully becoming one.Vagni said:
Deleriad
Mongoose
PhilHibbs said:
You are actually misunderstanding the RQII core rules for elemental spirits. The rules say (p144) "a spirit magician can invest their powers within his own body."
The reason that Pete Nash is listed as one of the authors of the S&P articles is that he took a full part in the article and ensured that it reflected both the spirit and the letter of the core rules. You may have mis-read the core book as saying "a spirit magician can invest one of their powers within his own body" but that is not what the rules actually say nor what they are intended to say. The rules are however pretty concise and it is an easy misunderstanding to make. Part of the reason behind the article.
Now there's nothing stopping you doing exactly what you want to do. I did suggest a mechanism in the previous thread to allow a spirit magician to gain just part of an elemental spirit's powers by treating them as akin to nature spirits. I gave the example of air spirits. However your point was that elements are fundamental and therefore can't be deconstructed so, presumably, if you want just one part of an elemental's abilities you have to have all of them.
The only point I want to make here is that the S&P article does not change how elemental spirits worked in the core book. The core book however has about 100 words on the subject while the article has many, many more.
Not so much an "easy" as a "guaranteed" misunderstanding:Deleriad said:
I don't see how that can be interpreted any other way than that the shaman retains their bodily form but gains some subset of the elemental's inherent abilities. Oh, and check out the illustration right below! If that isn't a shaman releasing a salamander and sending it at someone, I don't know what it is! I wanna do what he's doing!RQ2 p144 said:
(I know, illustrations aren't rules...)That's not what I said at all. I don't have a problem with a mortal only being able to cope with manifesting a single elemental ability.Deleriad said:
Deleriad
Mongoose
I hope Pete Nash won't mind me copying a small part of the response to my feedback for RQII. I had playtested the rules (I was in the second, later playtest set) by running the PCs through The Rainbow Mounds. One of the PCs had a salamander spirit and I sent him several questions about it that emerged from play.
And, for the second time, the actual rule, in fact the only rule as printed in the book is
"a spirit magician can invest their powers within his own body."
That is powers plural. The example list makes the mistake of briefly summarizing the most notable power for different elements rather than listing all the possible powers that a given elemental might have.
As for the art. I'm not sure I would use the art in a Mongoose book as a guideline for anything. For example the armour illustrations are badly misrepresentative of the default RQ armour technology.
And, for the second time, the actual rule, in fact the only rule as printed in the book is
"a spirit magician can invest their powers within his own body."
That is powers plural. The example list makes the mistake of briefly summarizing the most notable power for different elements rather than listing all the possible powers that a given elemental might have.
As for the art. I'm not sure I would use the art in a Mongoose book as a guideline for anything. For example the armour illustrations are badly misrepresentative of the default RQ armour technology.
Mongoose Pete
Mongoose
To be honest Phil, you’re not doing yourself any favours.PhilHibbs said:
You’ve asked questions and raised concerns about Spirit Magic in general, and people have very kindly bent over backwards to show you the potential of the system. In itself that’s great, questions and debate are what this forum is all about. Unfortunately you seem to have strong opinions and have not really appeared to take the offered advice and suggestions on board, but instead quite often griped at answers, as can be seen several times in this particular thread alone.
Now it’s understandable that you might not like the radically new mechanics, especially since this version of Spirit Magic was designed to allow GMs to emulate real world animist/shamanist traditions as well as Gloranthan ones. However, the same folks who are trying to help you step outside the conceptual box are also saying that if you don’t like it, then don’t use it – do your own thing - and that’s where you are sort of alienating yourself, because you keep coming back picking holes and implying that the rules have significant issues, seemingly based upon the fact that they don't support your personal view of how spirits should work.
So in all sincerity, if the RQ2 Spirit Magic rules don’t meet your very (setting or legacy) specific view of what Shamans should be, then simply go back to what works for you. It’ll only take a few minor house-rules, ten minutes work.
In the meantime however, it might be nice to hear the occasional counterbalancing piece constructive criticism or even some novel and innovative uses of the rules. After all they have been written to encourage imaginative application. Like everything in the core rules, they are just a toolbox. Use what you like, discard the rest and just have fun.
Similar threads
