What came first, interceptors or dodge?

[l33tpenguin]

The accurate trait breaks the optional beam rules if any fighter comes near Chimera.

Nah, it just makes it Always accurate...

A great deal of calculation went into the optional beam rules to ensure that they don't score more hits than the original rules. But an accurate beam will kill a fighter more often using the optional beam rules than using the original. (Which may be why, when the Shadows beam weapon becomes accurate in anti-fighter mode, it becomes a mini-beam. )

Hrm... I'll have to look over the optional rule and see how best we can break it with other rules.

Although, in all honesty, I want to see what is possible with a 1-2 damage ship at armageddon level using only existing rules. I'm even not sure about using shields, because that is essensially more damage.

So are adaptive armour and GEG, and to some extent so are dodge and interceptors, which is why ships with any of those defences tend to have fewer damage and crew points than those without. So the 2 damage Armageddon ship gets as many defences as possible to make it equivalent to a more normal ship with only one or two defences. It also gets a big sign stuck to the side showing the order in which all those defences apply - there are now rather more than the interceptors and dodge which started this thread in the first place. :lol:

True, but all the other traits, GEG, interceptors, AA, Dodge, they all cause hits to just be ignored. Which is truely maddening. At least, when you hit shields, you cause the other player to mark something off on his sheet. You accomplished SOMETHING.

Maybe just minimal shiels, like 5/5. Because I know full well that it drives me nuts when I score hits on shields and then they just get erased. Not as nuts as when I score a dozen hits and they all just go away, but it does anger me.

A note about crit protection on this. We really don't need extra weapons or traits to protect from crits. This has 2 damage and 2 crew. If it takes a crit, it is done.

And, if we want to give it a REALLY broken weapon, make its main weapon a 1 die twin linked beam. I don't believe there is anything in the rules against it, just nothing has it because it is VERY broken. I did rolls for a 6 die twin linked beam. I gave up rolling after something like 40 hits.

 

[Burger]

Without shields, the Chimera is e-mine fodder. Even with shields 5/5, 2 Dag'Kars can take it out in 1 turn with average dice rolls.

TL Beam... assuming you're re-rolling misses in every beam round?! On average you'll get 3 hits per AD.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Without shields, the Chimera is e-mine fodder. Even with shields 5/5, 2 Dag'Kars can take it out in 1 turn with average dice rolls.

TL Beam... assuming you're re-rolling misses in every beam round?! On average you'll get 3 hits per AD.

Ooohhh.. damned e-mines. I wasn't thinking about them. Ugh... I need a narn fleet...

 

[AdrianH]

Hrm... I'll have to look over the optional rule and see how best we can break it with other rules.

Apart from accurate beams which only need one hit to kill fighters, the only other problem I can see is the Drazi special action "Start Attack Run", which requires hits to be re-rolled to confirm them. Re-rolling beam hits gives a better chance of success using an option beam system than using the original system. Easily fixed, though - regardless of which system was used to score the hits, re-roll 4+ to confirm them.

True, but all the other traits, GEG, interceptors, AA, Dodge, they all cause hits to just be ignored. Which is truely maddening. At least, when you hit shields, you cause the other player to mark something off on his sheet. You accomplished SOMETHING.

Maybe just minimal shiels, like 5/5. Because I know full well that it drives me nuts when I score hits on shields and then they just get erased. Not as nuts as when I score a dozen hits and they all just go away, but it does anger me.

As Burger says, shields are Chimera's main defence against a salvo of e-mines, significant as almost everyone gets them these days. Besides, the whole idea was to layer as many defences as possible on a minimal damage hull. And if it does drive you nuts, that's probably part of Chimera's defence as well - inbuilt insanity plus Psychic Crew.

A note about crit protection on this. We really don't need extra weapons or traits to protect from crits. This has 2 damage and 2 crew. If it takes a crit, it is done.

It is true that any crit capable of knocking out a weapon or trait will also do bonus damage, but a single damage weapon might not do enough bonus damage to kill the ship, especially if it's doing CBD. Chimera certainly can't survive losing more than one weapon or trait in one turn unless it gets lucky with that CBD, but having gratuitous extra weapons and traits means any weapon or trait loss is less likely to take out the good ones.

And, if we want to give it a REALLY broken weapon, make its main weapon a 1 die twin linked beam. I don't believe there is anything in the rules against it, just nothing has it because it is VERY broken. I did rolls for a 6 die twin linked beam. I gave up rolling after something like 40 hits.

The only reason there's nothing in the rules against a twin-linked beam is because there are no rules for ship design. Anything else which allows re-rolls of misses (scouting, Concentrate All Firepower) specifically excludes beams.

 

[l33tpenguin]

How about this:
Chimera: Armageddon
Speed: 15
Turns: SM (same as Shadows)
Hull: 6
Damage: 2
Traits: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-Fighter 8, Advanced Jump Engines, Afterburner, Command +5, Dodge 2+, Gravitic Energy Grid 5, Huge Hangars, Carrier, Fleet Carrier, Interceptors 5, Scout, Self Repair 1, Shields 20/10, Stealth 6+, Flight computer, Escort, Psychic Crew 5

Weapons:
ZOMG Beam: range 10, F, 1AD, Accurate, Beam, Double Damage, Precise, Super AP, Twin Linked
Crit Fodder Cannon: range 4, F, 1AD, Weak
Crit Fodder Cannon: range 4, B, 1AD, Weak
Crit Fodder Cannon: range 4, P, 1AD, Weak
Crit Fodder Cannon: range 4, S, 1AD, Weak
Crit Fodder Cannon: range 4, A, 1AD, Weak
Crit Fodder Cannon: range 4, B(a), 1AD, Weak
Crit Fodder Cannon: range 4, T, 1AD, Weak
Pwnage Cannon: range 16, T, 18AD, Accurate, Double Damage. Precise, Super AP, Mini Beam, Twin-Linked

Special Actions: Chimera can use the following special actions: Close Blast Doors, Initiate Jump Point, Intensify Defensive Firepower, Run Silent.

Special Rules:
Chimera has no maximum range when scouting
No matter how many ships the opposing fleet has, Chimera always moves last. When firing, Chimera follows the normal initiative order.
Chimera will always start in hyperspace, regardless of the scenario rules.
Chimera ignores Shadow effects on its psychic crew

Even minus the 'new' special rules, I think this is turning out nicely

A note on the ZOMG Beam. I don't have a die with me right now to test it, but a SAP Twin Linked Beam is going to just keep running. I'm pretty sure that only having to roll a 2 or better to hit and any roll of 1 getting rerolled, 1 AD will run for a long while. What are the odds of rolling two 1s in a row? Something like 1 in 36. So I expect this beam to roll somewhere in the 20s to 40s every time.

I considered giving the ZOMG bean 2AD, to allow it to attack more than one target per turn, but giving the beam 2AD puts the possible hits MUCH higher than an average of 1 in 36, as the chances of rolling 2 rolls of 1, 1 are much smaller... I think.

Like the ZOMG Beam, the Pwnage Cannon hits on a 2 or better, but since it is a mini beam, it can't run. The Pwnage Cannon is designed to deal with smaller targets that would be a waste of the ZOMG Beams possible 20+ (probable) hits of DD, specifically fighters and Patrol/Skirmish ships.

So, with shields in place to cover E-mine hits, loaded crit protection and a very cheesy weapon or two, what is left?

I will have two of these in a fleet, they will be named Roflcopter and Lolerskate

 

[l33tpenguin]

Actually just tested this using excel...
Managed to score the following runs of hits with a 1 AD SAP TW Beam -
28, 59, 11, 3, 35, 93, 20, 54, 68, 145...

I am right about a SAP beam only needing a 2+ to hit, right?

SAP = +2 on the 'to hit' roll
Beam hitting on a roll of 4+
Roll 2 + 2 (SAP) = 4 (Beam hit)

 

[AdrianH]

SAP is another trait which hasn't applied to beams since 2e. It's meant as a modifier to rolls against hull value, which beams (and mini-beams) don't do.

But for the main weapon I still prefer 18 AD pulse cannon, with whatever traits you like. A beam can only be split between targets within 4" of each other, a pulse cannon can be split anywhere within arc, and someone put Chimera's pulse cannon into turret arc. Put it in the middle of the table and watch all the fighters and White Stars disappear.

 

[Burger]

GEG is the best solution to e-mines. It works on a per-weapon basis so it doesn't matter how many Dag'Kars you have, you can never whittle GEG down. And e-mines can't crit, which is GEG's only weakness... a perfect match.

 

[l33tpenguin]

SAP is another trait which hasn't applied to beams since 2e. It's meant as a modifier to rolls against hull value, which beams (and mini-beams) don't do.

But for the main weapon I still prefer 18 AD pulse cannon, with whatever traits you like. A beam can only be split between targets within 4" of each other, a pulse cannon can be split anywhere within arc, and someone put Chimera's pulse cannon into turret arc. Put it in the middle of the table and watch all the fighters and White Stars disappear.

Oh, I understand how it is *meant* to be used, but there aren't any rules against it So an SAP, TL Beam for me, please! Having both the beam and the turreted cannon gives the ship the choice between killing a bunch of stuff or really gutting a large ship. Also, since the beam is only 1AD, it can't be split.

Also, I wouldn't be terribly worried about fighters and even white stars for that matter. They are unlikely to throw enough damage to get past the defenses. But watching a 1AD weapon rip capital ships in half? That makes me giggle.

 

[akenatum]

I suppose the counter argument is that beams don't roll against armour which is what super ap is used for, +2 when rolling against armour, the beam doesn't roll against armour hence not working....

 

[l33tpenguin]

I suppose the counter argument is that beams don't roll against armour which is what super ap is used for, +2 when rolling against armour, the beam doesn't roll against armour hence not working....

True... however, the rule simply says 'Add +2 to the results of all Attack Dice rolled for this weapon' rather than something dealing with the hull score of the target. Beams have an attack roll, SAP adds to the attack result of that roll.

Yes yes yes, I know full well I'm reading the word of the rule rather than the intent of the rule. But, isn't that what this ship is about? Min/maxing and rules lawyering to the greatest extent possible? Its the same as why the beam is twin linked. EVERYTHING else that causes misses to be rerolled exculdes beams. But nothing in the rules says that there aren't twin linked beams.

 

[McKickaha]

You all realise of course that the next stage after this "well over the top", "perfect rules lawyer" ship's design has been finalised, is to then ID the combined fleet that has a chance of taking it down.

 

[AdrianH]

I suspect the main problem is that Chimera always moves last, either 15" anywhere or 30" after a turn of up to 90 degrees, then dumps 18AD of evil anywhere within a 16" radius. It's probably either out of range or out of arc of most opposing weapons.

The other problem is that SAP TL beams aren't against the rules because there are no rules for ship design. Which means Chimera just became Patrol level, two for one point. :twisted:

 

[McKickaha]

I suspect the main problem is that Chimera always moves last, either 15" anywhere or 30" after a turn of up to 90 degrees, then dumps 18AD of evil anywhere within a 16" radius. It's probably either out of range or out of arc of most opposing weapons.

The other problem is that SAP TL beams aren't against the rules because there are no rules for ship design. Which means Chimera just became Patrol level, two for one point. :twisted:

Hmm..........that logic means its going to be even tougher to take down, when they come in pairs.

 

[AdrianH]

My point was, if anything is allowed unless specifically disallowed, and there are no ship-building rules to disallow anything, all logic goes out of the window anyway.

Dump the SAP TL beam, put Chimera back to Armageddon level, and then see if we can find something to challenge it... Gaim saturating the table with long range energy mines might do it; so might Vorlons with their long range beams if they get lucky on their stealth rolls and Chimera gets unlucky with its dodge rolls.

 

[McKickaha]

AdrianH - sorry wasn't clear, I agree with your line of thinking. :lol:

 

[akenatum]

I suppose the counter argument is that beams don't roll against armour which is what super ap is used for, +2 when rolling against armour, the beam doesn't roll against armour hence not working....

True... however, the rule simply says 'Add +2 to the results of all Attack Dice rolled for this weapon' rather than something dealing with the hull score of the target. Beams have an attack roll, SAP adds to the attack result of that roll.

It might be a very bad argument but the whole section on super ap did mention against armour where beams mentions it ignores armour the fact that it's technically in the "fluff" part of the rule because it's not italiced would be the counter.... Again didn't say it was a good one lol.

Would love to fight this ship some time lol.

 

[l33tpenguin]

So, our baby is set to Armagaddon level, what fleet at 1 Armageddon point, would be capable of throwing enough dice or circumventing its defenses to defeat:
Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-Fighter 8, Dodge 2+, Gravitic Energy Grid 5, Interceptors 5, Self Repair 1, Shields 20/10, Stealth 6+, Psychic Crew 5

E-mines come to mind, but you need BIG e-mines in order to defeat the GEG. Other than that, they ignore almost all of the other defenses. Once you beat out the GEG, you still need 24 points of damage.

 

[Taran]

I would put it at Ancient level rather than Armageddon. "Most last regardless of init" is an Ancient level ability.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I would put it at Ancient level rather than Armageddon. "Most last regardless of init" is an Ancient level ability.

Thats probably fair even without that ability! lol