I'm designing a special operations frigate: 2,500 tons, TL16, thrust 6, jump 4. Carries a marine company, primary mission is low-profile insertion and extraction of same. What should I arm her with? I'm thinking ion cannons, EMP torpedoes, and jumpbreaker missiles for disabling spacecraft, and conventional missiles and torpedoes when she needs to break things. Am I missing anything?
Weapons for a special-operations ship
- Thread starter Hakkonen
- Start date
A
Anonymous
Guest
I don't understand why the weapons mix would be different from a regular warship.
Unless you're building a ship-to-ship boarding craft? But that doesn't seem low profile to me. It's kind of obvious once you fly up alongside.
A stealth shuttle of space ninjas and saboteurs seems the best way to covertly disable a planetary site.
What is the ship's actual mission? Is it considered mission failure if you have to use space weapons?
Unless you're building a ship-to-ship boarding craft? But that doesn't seem low profile to me. It's kind of obvious once you fly up alongside.
A stealth shuttle of space ninjas and saboteurs seems the best way to covertly disable a planetary site.
What is the ship's actual mission? Is it considered mission failure if you have to use space weapons?
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Is it a combat ship or just a survivable platform for the spec-ops team?
Given the size and payload I assume it's not a full warship, but more of a transport or blockade runner. If so, your goal in space combat is just to survive to get away, rather than to destroy the enemy.
To survive space combat you need to worry most about missiles and fighters. Missile and laser turrets can counter both reasonably well. Missile racks on fixed mounts saves a lot of space and gunners.
Reasonable ECM equipment (countermeasures, signals processor) and a few sensor operators can counter torpedo attacks. Don't forget a single sandcaster to launch chaff to confuse enemy sensors.
20 pts of TL16 armour is very difficult to resist.
A few nuclear dampers to counter fusion barbette fighters might be a good idea, but takes a lot of space.
Given the size and payload I assume it's not a full warship, but more of a transport or blockade runner. If so, your goal in space combat is just to survive to get away, rather than to destroy the enemy.
To survive space combat you need to worry most about missiles and fighters. Missile and laser turrets can counter both reasonably well. Missile racks on fixed mounts saves a lot of space and gunners.
Reasonable ECM equipment (countermeasures, signals processor) and a few sensor operators can counter torpedo attacks. Don't forget a single sandcaster to launch chaff to confuse enemy sensors.
20 pts of TL16 armour is very difficult to resist.
A few nuclear dampers to counter fusion barbette fighters might be a good idea, but takes a lot of space.
Boarding space stations and spacecraft is definitely part of the mission profile. The stealthy part is the ship's use of the "superior stealth" hull option and an emissions absorption grid. Yes, you know they're boarding you once they fly alongside, but until then you have no idea they're coming.Moppy said:
Mainly the latter, but she also needs to be able to throw a punch when (not if) things go pear-shaped. If nothing else, she's the gunship rescue for when the marines need a hot extraction.AnotherDilbert said:
Old School
Mongoose
My question for you is how much room does it have for weapons systems? An M6, J6 vessel just doesn’t have that much room for weapons, and you’ve also got to make room for 100+ marines and their landing craft. That’s ship that will have a hard time going to toe to toe with a similarly sized ship. Missile bays may be an extravagance it can’t afford.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
A rough attempt at such a ship: Reasonable performance but disappointing payload.
TL-16, 2500 Dt, J-4, M-6, Armour 20, Hull 1100, MCr 6000.
Superior Stealth, Emission Grid, Stealth jump drive.
Rad Shielding, Psi Shielding, EMP Hardening.
Good sensors, good countermeasures, 25 fixed mounts with 73 missile racks and 2 sandcasters (chaff).
Payload: 100 Marines + 10 officers + 2 small Deployment/Utility craft.
50 Dt cargo + 475 Dt in fuel/cargo containers normally containing J-2 fuel.
One 35 Dt module for defences, e.g. 5 Nuc Dampers, 2 Point Defence Batteries, better sensors, or a small bay for ground support.
Two 237.5 Dt modules for jump fuel or extra payload, e.g. another 100 marines or a boat bay for extra small craft or vehicles. Each module not containing jump fuel reduces jump range by 1 Pc.
TL-16, 2500 Dt, J-4, M-6, Armour 20, Hull 1100, MCr 6000.
Superior Stealth, Emission Grid, Stealth jump drive.
Rad Shielding, Psi Shielding, EMP Hardening.
Good sensors, good countermeasures, 25 fixed mounts with 73 missile racks and 2 sandcasters (chaff).
Payload: 100 Marines + 10 officers + 2 small Deployment/Utility craft.
50 Dt cargo + 475 Dt in fuel/cargo containers normally containing J-2 fuel.
One 35 Dt module for defences, e.g. 5 Nuc Dampers, 2 Point Defence Batteries, better sensors, or a small bay for ground support.
Two 237.5 Dt modules for jump fuel or extra payload, e.g. another 100 marines or a boat bay for extra small craft or vehicles. Each module not containing jump fuel reduces jump range by 1 Pc.
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Anonymous
Guest
This thing isn't going to be able to fight off a destroyer because it's too got too much fuel and payload, and armament would basically be self-defense against smallcraft and the occasional Gazelle, milita patrol cruiser, or fanatic exploding suicide free trader. A handful of particle barbettes and missile bays for attack; some sandcasters and a beam laser for sniping; a meson bay because it can shoot through rock and hit planetary bunkers.
This has been mentioned before but take a look at the US SOCOM ship for the sort of stuff they carry, then add stealth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_C_Ocean_Trader
Obviously you want atmospheric streamling, anti-personnel/anti-tank weapon in additon to anti-ship because you may be on the ground behind enemy lines (one turret has a tank gun and a couple of heavy MGs - I guess you could use anti-ship but it seems rather indiscriminate to me), the ability to launch and repair all sorts of toys like grav-bikes and submarines, a full medical center, a full command center for mission planning, more comms arrays than an x-boat, and a bunch of soldiers with all sorts of very specialised equipment so allow much more space for them. Some of the missiles in your huge mags are obviously also specialised atmospheric ones (stealth cruise and recon drone).
Somewhat interestingly the socom ship has the requirement to be able to launch boats while underway (presumably for self-defense?). In Traveller terms, you can do that anyway, and I would therefore translate this as maybe launch tubes for combat launch. And carry at least 2 fighters to escort your assault boats in and out, and for ship defense.
IMO this ain't gonna fit in 2,500 dtons. Make it larger and think about adding docking space for a jump-capable message boat. It's probably going to end up in the small cruiser size range. If the navy can't afford it, think about using a liner and pretending to be tourists. Or just do what you can in the budget allowed - but traditionally socoms have very generous budgets for their size.
This has been mentioned before but take a look at the US SOCOM ship for the sort of stuff they carry, then add stealth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_C_Ocean_Trader
Obviously you want atmospheric streamling, anti-personnel/anti-tank weapon in additon to anti-ship because you may be on the ground behind enemy lines (one turret has a tank gun and a couple of heavy MGs - I guess you could use anti-ship but it seems rather indiscriminate to me), the ability to launch and repair all sorts of toys like grav-bikes and submarines, a full medical center, a full command center for mission planning, more comms arrays than an x-boat, and a bunch of soldiers with all sorts of very specialised equipment so allow much more space for them. Some of the missiles in your huge mags are obviously also specialised atmospheric ones (stealth cruise and recon drone).
Somewhat interestingly the socom ship has the requirement to be able to launch boats while underway (presumably for self-defense?). In Traveller terms, you can do that anyway, and I would therefore translate this as maybe launch tubes for combat launch. And carry at least 2 fighters to escort your assault boats in and out, and for ship defense.
IMO this ain't gonna fit in 2,500 dtons. Make it larger and think about adding docking space for a jump-capable message boat. It's probably going to end up in the small cruiser size range. If the navy can't afford it, think about using a liner and pretending to be tourists. Or just do what you can in the budget allowed - but traditionally socoms have very generous budgets for their size.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Obviously it will not be able to fight equal size or cost of warship, never mind a destroyer.Moppy said:
A double salvo of 2 × 73 nuclear missiles will kill about 2000 Dt of TL15 warship (without PD). Missiles are a real danger even to small warships.Moppy said:
Quite, but that is much larger and more expensive than the OP specification called for. That might be the mother-ship this design operates from?Moppy said:
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Anonymous
Guest
AnotherDilbert said:
I wasn't referring to your specific design, by the way. I do like that it's got a psi-shield. I forgot that, but I like to think I'd remember when I went through the book looking for appropriate systems.
What you say about missile firepower is true, but advanced missiles may be more useful as I'd expect 9-G or close to it on a TL 15 warship and a nuke only has 10-G. Strategically, high thrust is needed for interception, and tactically it's needed for range control. I wonder if missile speeds falling off at higher TLs was intentional? Whole situation reminds me of 1980s-1990s torpedoes.
TL 16 armor is pretty good.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Agreed, to achieve a double salvo we probably need both nuke and advanced missiles. I just simplified the calculation a bit...Moppy said:
I don't see any fall off. E.g. at TL-8 we have Long Range missiles and at TL-14 we have Advanced missiles with similar properties but more damage.Moppy said:
Agreed, armour 20 at TL-16 is amazing. Turret weapons basically becomes pointless.Moppy said:
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Always...Linwood said:
How about this?
TL-16, 2500 Dt, J-4, M-6, Armour 20, Hull 1100, MCr 6000.
Superior Stealth, Emission Grid, Stealth jump drive.
Rad Shielding, Psi Shielding, EMP Hardening.
Decent sensors, Decent countermeasures, 25 fixed mounts with 73 missile racks and 2 sandcasters (chaff).
Payload:
Two 40 Dt sensor/armament modules.
Eleven 125 Dt payload modules, of which eight is normally occupied by jump fuel modules. Two modules are required for each J-1 fuel. One payload module can carry about 50 marines.
8 Fuel modules, 2 barracks modules, and 1 boat bay/utility module approximates the previous design.
The ship can operate at J-3/M-4 with a permanently attached drop tank, leaving all 1375 Dt modular space free, presumably losing the stealth properties.
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Anonymous
Guest
AnotherDilbert said:
The missile speed falloff comes from maneuvre drive increasing past 6. It seems to me they wrote that drive tech table then forgot it went past 6. Perhaps it's intentional or perhaps it's taboo. Jumpbreaker missiles being 10g for example. Tech 15 has 9g ships, tech 16 has 10g, how do they expect a jump breaker to hit?
Old School
Mongoose
Is it specifically written anywhere that 9G is for small ships only? I’ve never seen it, but the big naval vessels still cap out at 6.
Somene at Mongoose has acknowledged that the core rules don’t do a great job of explaining what is 3I and what are options for other settings.
Somene at Mongoose has acknowledged that the core rules don’t do a great job of explaining what is 3I and what are options for other settings.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
The rules have no special limits: all spacecraft can have 9 g.Old School said:
The ships in HG is just carbon copies of ships from CT Fighting Ships, they make no more sense under MgT2 rules than they did under CT rules.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
1 g acceleration advantage is still a lot...Moppy said:
With an endurance of 1 h = 3600 s and an acceleration of 10 g (≈100 m/s²) the missile can reach 100 × 3600² / 2 ≈ 648 000 km.
A ship trying to get away at 9 g acceleration would travel 90 × 3600² / 2 ≈ 583 000 km.
The missile would have to be fired from within 65000 km (Distant range) to reach the fleeing ship.
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Anonymous
Guest
more time to deal with it or jump
edit: i think your calculation looks fine but it's not resolved this way in the combat rules.
edit: i think your calculation looks fine but it's not resolved this way in the combat rules.