WaW: Shermans in S&P 62

[hithero]

Excellent idea Rabid Child
Sgt Hulka - I've found that just one German heavy or even Panther can dominate the game (especially against allied rubbish infantry AT weapons) unless the scenario prevents this.

 

[pelarel]

hithero - I've had the same experience, a panther stood up to two cromwells, a firefly and a 6pdr ATG without a scratch for three turns, After the first round of shots from my brits the firefly was popped, next round one of the cromwells. the remaining cromwell then decided that discretion was the better part of valour and nipped around a hill to take on a Wirbelwind instead! :shock:

 

[Alexb83]

I'm a little concerned by the 9+ to hit number. This makes the Sherman immune to aircraft cannon. Was this a reaction to the German Flakpanzer? Shall all tanks gain +1 to their to hit number and armor saves to compensate?

I don't know, compared to the Russian T-34, I feel like the new Sherman-based tanks (especially the Firefly) are unrealistically superior, especially when you factor in their points value.

Shermans had their advantages - sufficient enough as they were that Russian guards units would swap their T-34s for lend-lease Shermans when they got them.

They were more comfortable (a big factor - both heating and space) mechanically more reliable, and had very comparable armour (factoring in extra weight vs. less sloping) with similar armament, and the additional bonus of superior optics.
Plus they got wet stowage for their ammunition relatively early.

 

[rvrratt]

I've toyed with the idea of making tank squadron limitations based on their points. As it stands the army creation rules favor the higher points tanks.

Most armies have 3 armor slots, but if the German player can fill theirs with 3 Tiger IIs and the best you have are Sherman Jumbos, they have the advantage of concentration of force. Granted the other player will have more points elsewhere if the game is even, but as it stands in the main rulebook, for most armies the best tank killers are other tanks.

So my thought was this:
Up to 450pts may be spent per Armor slot. Any tanks purchased as one slot are a squadron, choose a Squad Leader before the game starts. Any tanks that cost more than 450pts take up one Armor slot per 450pts or part thereof.

Still want to field the Tiger II? Sure, but it takes 2 armor slots to do it and it can have up to a Panther as a pal. Meanwhile the other player can have a boatload of Shermans as they can pack multiples in each Armor slot. The main point is that it balances the armor on the table, since armor tends to dominate.

I've playtested this and so long as the cheaper tanks are in squadrons, it doesn't slow the game down one bit since each player will either have 3 tanks or 3 groups of tanks that act together.

Thoughts?

I like how you think!

 

[Rabidchild]

Thoughts?

I like how you think!

Excellent thought! :lol:

 

[Arch Lector Petrovski]

Sounds like a good idea. I think it's also important to remember that unless you are going tank centric and minimising every other element of your army the cost of the tanks does limit you within a standard army. In a 2,00 pt army you can have a maximum of 2 platoons each with a maximum of 3-ish tanks. However you also need a minimum of 2 squad assets per platoon, and will probably want to take some form of air or anti air unit. So I would think that in most cases the limit of points, slots and requirements of a platoon will balance things out a bit.


As for the armoured platoon rules, it might be an idea to consider only allowing one armoured platoon per army. So in a 5,000 pt battle (with one armoured platoon for 2,000 and one normal for each 1,500 pts) you could have a maximum of 1 armoured platoon and would have to take one normal platoon with the potential to take up to one more.

Could also look at working a similar idea in with an air-borne platoon?

 

[Agis]

I think it's also important to remember that unless you are going tank centric and minimising every other element of your army the cost of the tanks does limit you within a standard army. In a 2,00 pt army you can have a maximum of 2 platoons each with a maximum of 3-ish tanks. However you also need a minimum of 2 squad assets per platoon, and will probably want to take some form of air or anti air unit. So I would think that in most cases the limit of points, slots and requirements of a platoon will balance things out a bit.
snip

That was exactly the idea of the initial army list.

 

[Agis]

Just a pointer to a very nice 1/56 = 28mm Sherman I (icl. the option to build a Firefly!!!):
http://www.sdean-forum.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14868

You can get them here:
http://www.chieftainmodels.co.uk/

I have ordered before there, very good service and very good models.
(And before anybody asked, I have nothing from this, just a friendly pointer...)

 

[pelarel]

a thought on using the tanks squadrons (I hopefully have a game monday night where the germans have a Stug III squadron and a lone JagdPz IV and the brits have a cromwell squadron and an achilles squadron so looking forward to testing this out):

Given that they're a team, would you use the 3" fire zone and allocate hits from the firing squadron as if it were an infantry team? This would seem logical to me as the squadron would generally follow the squadron commanders lead in targetting.

cheers

chris

 

[Agis]

Given that they're a team, would you use the 3" fire zone and allocate hits from the firing squadron as if it were an infantry team? This would seem logical to me as the squadron would generally follow the squadron commanders lead in targetting.

Absolutely, as soon as the tanks form a unit all the rules for units apply!

 

[Rabidchild]

Exactly, pelarel. The squadron rules work brilliantly for vehicles. Believe me, I've tested it!

This is one of my favorite things about the BF:Evo rules: squadrons let me play large vehicle games without sacrificing speed of play. My last game was a small one and consisted of 3 Shermans, 3 Sherman (76) and 2 Pershings against 2 Tigers and 2 Panthers. It only took about 45 minutes and was great fun! Then again, I am something of a Treadhead.

 

[Rabidchild]

Revised vehicle rule:

Up to 450pts may be spent per Armor slot, and an Armor slot may only have one vehicle type. All vehicles purchased as one slot are a squadron, choose a Squad Leader before the game starts. Any tanks that cost more than 450pts take up one Armor slot per 450pts or part thereof.

Examples:
1 Tiger II and 1 Panther G = 3 Armor slots. No squadrons.
6 Sherman M4A3 = 3 Armor slots. 3 squadrons of 2.
2 Churchill VII, 1 Sherman Firefly = 3 Armor slots. No squadrons.
2 T-34/43, 2 SU-100, 1 KV-1C = 3 Armor slots. 1 squadron of 2 T-34, 1 squadron of 2 SU-100 and one lonely KV-1C.

 

[Agis]

Revised vehicle rule:

Up to 450pts may be spent per Armor slot, and an Armor slot may only have one vehicle type. All vehicles purchased as one slot are a squadron, choose a Squad Leader before the game starts. Any tanks that cost more than 450pts take up one Armor slot per 450pts or part thereof.

Examples:
1 Tiger II and 1 Panther G = 3 Armor slots. No squadrons.
6 Sherman M4A3 = 3 Armor slots. 3 squadrons of 2.
2 Churchill VII, 1 Sherman Firefly = 3 Armor slots. No squadrons.
2 T-34/43, 2 SU-100, 1 KV-1C = 3 Armor slots. 1 squadron of 2 T-34, 1 squadron of 2 SU-100 and one lonely KV-1C.

Nailed! I like it.
It really solves the whole armour balancing thing very well IMO.
I appreciate this exchange of ideas very much, not only brings it new and fresh ideas but it is also a sort of quality control, since many people are involved.
If this goes on for a while we soon have the PERFECT WaW rulebook soon... :wink: :wink:

 

[pelarel]

Revised vehicle rule:

Up to 450pts may be spent per Armor slot, and an Armor slot may only have one vehicle type. All vehicles purchased as one slot are a squadron, choose a Squad Leader before the game starts. Any tanks that cost more than 450pts take up one Armor slot per 450pts or part thereof.

Examples:
1 Tiger II and 1 Panther G = 3 Armor slots. No squadrons.
6 Sherman M4A3 = 3 Armor slots. 3 squadrons of 2.
2 Churchill VII, 1 Sherman Firefly = 3 Armor slots. No squadrons.
2 T-34/43, 2 SU-100, 1 KV-1C = 3 Armor slots. 1 squadron of 2 T-34, 1 squadron of 2 SU-100 and one lonely KV-1C.

cool! I like the clarification - examples always help!

 

[SgtHulka]

Going the opposite direction, has anyone made each infantry figure "independent" for super-detailed skirmish actions? I'm thinking single squad versus single squad. Theoretically it should be possible, but I'm curious if anyone's tried it and what sort of obstacles they ran into and new rules they required? (like, I think you'd need a rule for loaders to keep certain teams together, and I'm not sure what sort of rule you'd give leaders if everyone's independent, and you'd probably want grenade rules and possibly more detailed close combat rules)

 

[Agis]

Going the opposite direction, has anyone made each infantry figure "independent" for super-detailed skirmish actions? I'm thinking single squad versus single squad. Theoretically it should be possible, but I'm curious if anyone's tried it and what sort of obstacles they ran into and new rules they required? (like, I think you'd need a rule for loaders to keep certain teams together, and I'm not sure what sort of rule you'd give leaders if everyone's independent, and you'd probably want grenade rules and possibly more detailed close combat rules)

I am tinkering with it.
Reading Ambush Alley rules gave me additional ideas.
You definitely need alternate unit or even model activation, which unfortunately not possible under the LL...

Maybe more then 1 hit per infantry model, a roll that not everyone is dead after 1st hit etc.
Leader gives additional bonus for shooting or so.
Medics can modify rolls to stand up.
Grenades etc etc.

Maybe I will write it down some day. So Far I have to much at hand with the Vehicle books etc. :wink:

 

[MongooseMatt]

Going the opposite direction, has anyone made each infantry figure "independent" for super-detailed skirmish actions?

That is exactly what BF Evo: Spec ops will do