[WAW]AD Publishing Add-on Rules Experiences

SgtHulka

Mongoose
I finally got a chance to play yesterday using Agis' Add-on rules (free download at Wargames Vault). Here are my experiences.

The Game: The game was Soviets versus Germans. Soviets had 3 T-34/85's, 2 Engineer half-squads, three Desant squads, one regular Squad, and one HQ half-squad. Soviets were "Attack".

The Germans had three Panzergrenadier squads, two Panther G tanks (german vehicle companion statistics), and a Panzer IV H tank. Germans were "Probe". They chose a built-up area to set up in and defend; the Soviets were forced to attack through woods and across a wide field. The engineers "ambush" ability didn't help much in this scenario.

Concentrate Fire: Can't say much about this trait since never used it. Instead, infantry generally used their ready actions to "Take Cover".

Hits/X: The Panzer IV H was crippled at one point, which was neat, but it was near the end of the game and it was already in position so it didn't have much effect.

Scoped: No snipers were involved.

Take Cover!: Used this a lot. It definitely helped infantry survive. A single Engineer taking cover in a ruined building got hit by MG 42 and Kar98 fire; something like 6 dice of "hits" on one figure, and he survived (4+ for being elite in cover plus re-rolls). His squad was double-suppressed as a result, though (see below).

Tracks/X: I really liked the change to this one. In order to get in and out of cover, tanks needed to use their base move instead of their Tracks move. The T-34's still could "scoot and shoot" using the Tracks move if they found copses of woods that they could drive out from behind (instead of going in and out of the woods themselves).

Wheels/X: Didn't have any wheeled vehicles, but see Tracks above.

Suppression: Another change I really liked. However, this rule change probably requires some chits or counters or something to indicate which units are suppressed. Maybe knock a figure in the unit over for suppression, knock two figures over for double suppression. Because it sometimes became hard to remember who was suppressed. Basically, Machineguns (especially MG-42's) suppressed the heck out of units. The Soviets really couldn't advance until they knocked out all three of the Grenadier's MG-42's, and they really needed armor to help them do that. Unfortunately, the Panthers kept the Soviet Armor at bay, so it was only the Engineers who had a chance to return-fire at the MG-42's with bazookas DPM's (because the Engineers had the dedicated trait). By turn 6 one MG-42 was still active, and that was probably the biggest reason the Germans won.

Vehicles: Again, I really liked this change. There were a couple of instances where the T-34's fired and then moved, and it was nice not to have to re-roll the attacks. It's another reason to use the base move instead of the Tracks move.

Double Suppression (German Vehicle Companion Rule): This is what made the MG-42's so vicious. It also makes tanks potentially more effective against infantry. A tank can now shoot out 12 suppression dice in a single action. But remember that means the tank isn't using its cannon (against an enemy tank, for example), and that some of those dice will be "1's". Plus, panzerfausts and bazookas are "slow" so even if the tank suppresses a unit, it hasn't really neutralized the threat...it requires double suppression to neutralize an infantry unit. Basically, all the suppression being thrown around, and the improved survivability of infantry, meant that there was a big reason to keep your squad together. That is, splitting squads down to two five-man teams was a recipe for disaster. The Soviets suffered from this problem since so many of their squads were half-squads or Desant troops. The Germans, on the other hand, had big numbers of soldiers to resist suppression.
 
Thanks for the feedback SgtHulka! 8)
Sounds to me as if the "Add On!" achieved its design goal...
:wink:

Concentrate Fire: Same in our games and exactly what expected. Some people feared that it might be too good.
IMO it is a nice option, and only that - an option.
Most of the time you will use other ready action effects.

Take Cover: Sounds again as if the desired effect is achieved.
Take Cover is definitely meant to used together with the changed vehicle rules and the Double Suppression trait.
More options, more to think, a bit less lethality and more suppression.

Suppression: Sgt - I LOVE the "knock a figure in the unit over for suppression,
knock two figures over for double suppression
" idea! I will use that asap! :idea:


So everybody give us all more feedback, I am very curious about YOUR experiences...
 
First, I would like to thank you Agis for the support you give to the WaW game. The Add-on rules and the vehicule compendiums are giving more depth and possibilites to this wonderful game.

Concentrate fire: We use this action every time we get the chance! This is the best thing to do to take down enemy in cover.

Crippled: This rule adds more realism to badly damaged vehicules. We approve it!

Scope: We were using the same rule before the Add-on was released. So that's a good thing.

Take cover: I like the idea behind this rule but I don't think that infantry should have to ''lose'' an action just to benefit from cover. Either you are in cover, or you're not. You should not have to take a Ready action to have better ''protection''.

Tracks & Wheels/X: That's a good thing because there was some abuse
with this before. Just like Sgt Hulka pointed out.

Double suppression: The old BF:Ultra modern combat featured this rule, and I think it's the right thing to add them to WaW. Without that, the suppression rules are futile.
 
Wargoat said:
First, I would like to thank you Agis for the support you give to the WaW game. The Add-on rules and the vehicule compendiums are giving more depth and possibilites to this wonderful game.

Concentrate fire: We use this action every time we get the chance! This is the best thing to do to take down enemy in cover.

Crippled: This rule adds more realism to badly damaged vehicules. We approve it!

Scope: We were using the same rule before the Add-on was released. So that's a good thing.

He, he, sounds good to me - mission accomplished! :D

Wargoat said:
Take cover: I like the idea behind this rule but I don't think that infantry should have to ''lose'' an action just to benefit from cover. Either you are in cover, or you're not. You should not have to take a Ready action to have better ''protection''.
Hmm - true. However - the idea behind the "Take Cover!" action is the following: IMO the increased Kill and Save score is something you get "for free". So this is already "covered". The "Take Cover!" action is there to represent the additional effort to get the most out of the available cover. And that should certainly take away some firepower (=the ready action).

:idea: Hmmm, the next step would be that any form of cover gives you immediately an unmodified save (aka dodge).

Should try this...


Wargoat said:
Tracks & Wheels/X: That's a good thing because there was some abuse
with this before. Just like Sgt Hulka pointed out.

Double suppression: The old BF:Ultra modern combat featured this rule, and I think it's the right thing to add them to WaW. Without that, the suppression rules are futile.

Thanks for the feedback, and keep it coming.
 
Agis said:
:idea: Hmmm, the next step would be that any form of cover gives you immediately an unmodified save (aka dodge).

Should try this...

Did we come up with the same idea at the same time Agis? :lol: I just posted this idea on Evo Command. Great minds.. 8)
 
Agis said:
:idea: Hmmm, the next step would be that any form of cover gives you immediately an unmodified save (aka dodge).

If anyone is interested I can code up some php pages to run simulations of various options. I did that already to give me stats for the effects of the current cover rules.

One thing I was thinking about was perhaps having cover modify the target number. Makes it more difficult to hit a target but if you do the bullet is still as effective.
 
pixelgeek said:
Agis said:
:idea: Hmmm, the next step would be that any form of cover gives you immediately an unmodified save (aka dodge).

If anyone is interested I can code up some php pages to run simulations of various options. I did that already to give me stats for the effects of the current cover rules.

One thing I was thinking about was perhaps having cover modify the target number. Makes it more difficult to hit a target but if you do the bullet is still as effective.

Hi pixelgeek, my group were discussing the same thing - that cover should modify the to hit number. A lot of accounts I've read (Cassino, Normandy etc_ suggest that once infantry were in a solid structure/cover it was REALLY hard to dig them out - the most you could do was suppress the h*ll out of them and hope to get a squad close enough to lob in a few grenades or bring up some heavy weapons hence the development of assault guns. wheras, so far in our games it's been relatively easy to shoot units out of buildings or force them back to a point where everytime they move up to fire they're knocked back again with relatively little fire power.

a back of the envelope calc for 12 D6 worth of firing at a unit in medium cover:

Current rules: 12 D6 rolled, 6 hits on 4+ (no kills as kill No=7), first round of saves 2 save (5+ save), if 'take cover' applies, second roll of saves may save 1 (1.333 for the mathematically leaned :wink: ) more, therefore 2(.66) kills.

+1 to TN: 12 d6 rolled, 4 hits on 5+ (undecided on whether to keep kill on 6+ or 7+, we'll assume 7+ so no kills), first round of saves gives 1(.33) saves, second round 1, therefore 1(.66) kills.

the more dice you throw at a unit, the greater the difference between the number of killed. Though it's worth noting that the number of suppression dice applied remains the same so you have an equal chance of preventing the unit from acting the following turn.

Not sure if this helps the discussion :lol:
 
Rabidchild said:
Agis said:
:idea: Hmmm, the next step would be that any form of cover gives you immediately an unmodified save (aka dodge).

Should try this...

Did we come up with the same idea at the same time Agis? :lol: I just posted this idea on Evo Command. Great minds.. 8)

Oh - true! I just read the new 40K cover rules and thought "Why no try the same approach..".
 
I like all of the ideas above. :D It s also very close to the original rule draft I provided 1 year ago.

However - please bear in mind that you can't change the existing cover rules even under the logo license. :!:
Quote from LL: "12. Products produced under this agreement may not reproduce or change, in any form, the following sections from the SRD; Units, Game Turn, Move Actions, Shoot Actions, Charge Actions, Ready Actions, Reactions..."

My "Take Cover!" trait is already pushing the envelope pretty much.
All the above can be implemented as a house rule but not even under the LL. :(
(That is also the reason why I pressed every modification in a special rule or Trait; the "Take Cover!" trait would otherwise be perfectly sitting in the Ready Action section of the rulebook).
 
Agis said:
However - please bear in mind that you can't change the existing cover rules even under the logo license. :!:

So any chance we can get Matt to errata them?

I find it odd that they'd abandon a seemingly better cover system from one of their own games.

Does the logo license prohibit doing things like adding a morale system to the game?
 
pixelgeek said:
Agis said:
However - please bear in mind that you can't change the existing cover rules even under the logo license. :!:
So any chance we can get Matt to errata them?

This is absolutely Matt's call. And errata is IMO too strong a word.
The current rules work fine as they are. They are just very, very bloody.

pixelgeek said:
I find it odd that they'd abandon a seemingly better cover system from one of their own games.

Does the logo license prohibit doing things like adding a morale system to the game?

Read the LL. :wink: As long as you can squeeze it into special rules and traits all is fine.

As far as a morale system is concerned, what for?
The effect of a morale system is already incorporated within the rules.
It is called "Unit Leaders, Push Back, Suppression, Retreat"! :wink:
These rules and traits alone accomplish IMO pretty much everything that you need to represent morale and leadership effects in a tabletop wargame.
 
I'm with Agis, I like the morale as it is, but it's something that always comes up so there is certainly room for someone to write up something under the LL. Making it work within the LL is another story...
 
Wargoat said:
Take cover: I like the idea behind this rule but I don't think that infantry should have to ''lose'' an action just to benefit from cover. Either you are in cover, or you're not. You should not have to take a Ready action to have better ''protection''.

I can see your point but I don't personally have a problem with it. It makes sense to me that if you're concentrating on keeping your head down, you're not shooting quite as much. I think of it as the baby brother of the "dig in" action used in some non-skirmish games (minus the sandbags and spades).
 
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