War in the Twenty-First Century
- Thread starter Nerroth
- Start date
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Tolwyn said:
Who says the Centauri didn't abandon the focus on beams later as they perfected the rapid firing ion cannons?
chainmailler
Mongoose
We are going to need to contract some of our site scratch builders to make some of the ships were talking about here. especially oreini ones seeing that there are none.
Most beam weapons look like they should only be single damage (as they're either a 'light laser' or a 'forerunner of the battle laser'). It's easy to imagine them being abandoned as obsolete when the punchier ion cannons come into play.
Crossposted:
I've done a bit of calculation and scaling; figuring out the average hitpoints of the orieni ship classes (if shot at from a random direction) in B5W. ACTA ships generally have about 40-50% as many hitpoints. Cripple values are usually in the order of 25% of normal hitpoints. Playtesting might move a value up or down, but it's a good starting point if it's desired to retain the relative size of classes.
Following that scaling, that gives the following damage values
Frigate Hull (Devout Escort/Obedient Patrol): 16/4
Frigate Hull (Vengeful Laser): 20/4
Corvette Hull (Steadfast Escort/Storm Front Missile): 21/5
Corvette Hull (Commune Battle Leader): 26/6
Support Ship (Benevolent Heavy Scout/Vigilant H/K Carrier): 48/11
Troopship (Enlightenment Invader): 48/11
Command Ship (Prophet/Paragon): 57/13
Hull values should be normal-ish; comparable to EA or Centauri - the Orieni weren't especially noted for heavy armour, but nor were they noted for being fragile. Probably 4 for the frigates, 5 for the 'Vettes and auxiliaries and 6 for the command ships.
Weapons (opinions from flavour text only) - let's have a bit of a debate..
Laser Lance
listed as the fore-runner to the Centauri Battle laser (when reverse engineered). Described as 'short ranged' (matching battle laser). Battle laser stats (maybe drop to 15" to account for centauri evolution of the design) seem apt.
Suggest: Full Arc, 15" range, Beam, Precise
Light laser cannon
Speaks for itself. I was going to say boresight beam but then I was reminded that there is an extent stat for it on the Omega destroyer - and a boresight won't work as it's seen on a broadside mount.
Suggest: Full Arc, 15" range, Mini-Beam, Slow-loading.
Missile Rack
Whilst the phrase 'heavy missiles' are used, its described as being the imperium's primary long ranged firepower. Clone either EA or Dilgar missile rack statline. Personally I'd suggest EA; the gauss weapons do hull-breaking, the lasers and missiles pick on critical targets. Battle lasers and double damage missiles starts to look a lot like the contemporary centauri fleet. It also fits the description of the signature Orieni rack loadout:
Suggest: Full Arc, 30" range, Super Armour Piercing, Precise.
The comment was made about making them unique - Jim2 suggested 24" range, Accurate, AP, Precise. I'm not sure about accurate - yes, they're well guided but a pure impact missile is arguably easier for an agile target to dodge than a proximity fuzed weapon's fragmentation-cloud. In game terms I'd like to see them keep their range as they're the only really long ranged punch the Hand of the Blessed are going to get.
Suggestion to make them unusual:
I'd say that being able to dump a lot of missiles might help; if you want something unique, possibly mix and match slow-loads and one-shot racks (label as tube and rack respectively?) - so the Storm Front corvette, for example, is just that, a humungous opening salvo but then a mid-powered sustained bombardment whilst the rest of the fleet takes over and closes to gun/laser range.
Gauss Cannons/Heavy Gauss Cannons/Gatlings
Standard cannon. I'd still use EA railgun stats because orieni railguns are the light flak variant. Up to triple damage and slight range boost for heavies.
Note that railguns and gatling railguns are secondary light guns, unlike 'big stick' weapons on earth ships. The twin array may no longer feature on centauri ships, but a twin-linked, 12" range weapon and high anti-fighter score (and low interceptor score) would be a good model. Reduce range to imply its secondary weapon nature. Note that 'escort' ships usually max out on these. All Orieni ships have at least 2 mounted in every bearing. I've got a weapons list mapping for the ships that I'll post later.
Also, fighter armament:
'Effective against ships' to my mind means a non-weak weapon. If following the gatling model above, that means twin-linked but otherwise traitless, like a 3rd age 'fury.
Gauss Cannon
Suggest: Full Arc, 20" range, Armour Piercing, Double Damage
Heavy Gauss Cannon
Suggest: Full Arc, 25" range, Armour Piercing, Triple Damage
Gatling Railgun
Suggest: Full Arc, 8" range, Twin-Linked + Anti-fighter/Interceptors
Light Gatling Railgun (Fighters)
Suggest: Turret, 2" range, Twin-Linked
I'd suggest the following priority levels:
Patrol
Templar wing (normal interceptor)
Shining Star/Shining Light wing (Super-heavy suicide fighter)
All fighter craft, as normal. I'd suggest Vigilants - and possibly command hulls like the Commune and Prophet - have the H/K control X trait, the sum of which is the maximum number of Hunter-killers you can move in one turn. We need to get the self-destruct rules clear, as well, given how many arguments it's caused over the gaim.
Frigate Hull (Devout Escort/Obedient Patrol)
Frigate Hull (Vengeful Laser)
Obedient is a basic warship; a forward gauss cannon and some gatling coverage. The devout swaps the cannon for more gatlings - so would also get more interceptors and anti-fighter along with the escort trait.
Vengful is mostly forward laser lances, with a small forward laser cannon as well (2 lances and one slow-loading cannon).
Skirmish
Corvette Hull (Steadfast Escort/Storm Front Missile)
Corvette Hull (Commune Battle Leader)
I can't remember the Steadfast's weapons config - I'll post it later this evening - whilst the storm front packs 3 missile racks - a skirmish-level missile boat puts it on a par with the Sagg, except that its missiles should be forwards only. I like the idea of a big one-shot as well as the slow-loads, as noted - it means the orieni can put out a big punch at range, but can't keep fighting at range, something a little unique.
Commune would be a low-priority command ship (nice and unique) and therefore a nice place to put hunter-killer controllers so its still useful even in larger games.
Raid
Support Ship (Benevolent Heavy Scout/Vigilant H/K Carrier)
Troopship (Enlightenment Invader)
The vigilant carries defensive gatlings, some missile racks and a small fighter complement. It's a multi-purpose transport, but using it as an H/K carrier (one of its listed roles) makes it unique and the 'primary' fighting ship at raid level (you need at least one 'generic' ship at all mid points levels due to points breakdown rules or you end up with a fleet with half a dozen scouts or something daft like that.
Benevolent is a generic scout. It's quite big - nearly 50 hit points by my reckoning - so wouldn't be stealth (it shares a hull with the vigilant, so that'd be a bit odd) - it survives the game by sheer bulk, active interceptors/anti-fighter, and above all staying the hell out of the fighting. Think of it as an EA explorer but not quite so extreme.
The enlightenment is an assault ship. Smallish fighter wing & shuttles. High troop capacity.
Battle
Command Ship (Prophet)
Classic battleship. Small command bonus, forward missile tubes rather than a laser, gauss cannons for mid range beatings and a laser lance broadside for up close.
30 fighters means 6 flights of templars - a not insignificant complement making the ship fall somewhere between battleship and carrier. Possibly carrier 2 but no more - it's too well armed to be a dedicated carrier.
War
Command Ship (Paragon)
I was going to say no warships - the era is a bit old for them. That said, the problem with the Paragon is that it's a Prophet but better. It has (much) more forward missile firepower, slightly more gauss cannons and some omni-directonal lance/missile power to back up the broadsides as well.
Fighter complement and durability are identical to a regular prophet-class though.
My suggestions to draw some water between the two would be as follows:
1) Use the Prophet-class hull (crew/damage). This makes the Paragon bloody fragile for a warship but that's something a player has to live with. It still has more hitpoints than a Mankhat dreadnought, even if it's more fragile than other warships.
2) The Paragons were 'first in line for refits' - no ship by default carries either rapid gatling railguns or heavy gauss cannons, but if we assume a WOCR-era paragon has gone through these refits it's going to have even more defences relative to a prophet and better firepower as well as just more.
3) The paragons were command ships used by the Orieni Imperium Strike Forces (hence the name!). The strike forces were a breed apart from the regular fleet; designed to 'kick in the door' for the regular fleet to follow up (akin to Guards Regiments in the Red Army). The crews were the best of the best in a fleet noted for a rigourous and lengthy training regimen (part of the reason the Orieni lost is that they took so damn long to train recruits). Their better training and refits to the ships 'soft systems' (command and control and so on) means that they'd get a bigger command bonus than a prophet, and fleet carrier for the fighters. Also, if there's a desire to do so, stealing Da Boss' idea and giving them Elite Crew +1 or +2 would represent things well, letting a paragon reliably Concentrate all fire! with its impressive prow missile salvo.
I'll post up a more detailed ship breakdown and some suggested stats later.
Edit:
Swearwords. Missed the Seeker. Will check on that one.
Okay, gentlemen, ladies, and any not covered by the above.
A consolidation and expansion of comments above:
Patrol Level
Templar-class Interceptor
Armed With:
Twin Light Gatling Railguns
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
Speed: 10
Hull: 4
Craft: 6
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight +1, Dodge 2+, Fighter
Weapons:
Light Gatling Railguns - 2" range - Turret - 1 AD - Twin-linked
Shining Light-class Hunter-Killer
Armed With:
Nothing - remote-piloted kamikaze fighter.
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
For all that the Wars of the Centauri Republic has them in packs of 6, I like the idea of hunter-killers being big, solo units - one superheavy feels like it should do more damage and be easier to control than a flock of lighter ships. Unlike the 'reactor overload' option of the Klikkita(k) or the suicide attack of Dilgar Thoruns, this is from the ground up purely and simply a remote missile. I'd be tempted to say it should be unable to win dogfights, breaching-pod fashion (although be perhaps less likely to lose than most pods), have a worse dodge like most super-heavies, and cause a much, much bigger bang than Klikkitaks. The simplest rule I've come up with so far for remote control is that they can only move if they start the fighter movement phase within X" - suggestions please - of a ship with the Hunter-Killer Control trait. Try 18" for a starting value.
Speed: 10
Hull: 5
Craft: 6
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight -1, Dodge 5+, Fighter, Hunter-Killer
Weapons:
Ram - 0" range - Contact Only - 2 AD - Double Damage, Precise, Armour Piercing, Ram
Shining Star-class Improved Hunter-Killer
Armed With:
Nothing - remote-piloted kamikaze fighter.
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
The key difference between the two is that the Shining Star has armour and more hull durability under the armour to boot. The difference in ramming damage is fairly minimal but it's a lot harder to stop - probably upping hull 5 to hull 6, and giving the ram super AP instead of AP as it's a heavier, tougher fighter to drive further into the hull before breaking up and exploding.
Speed: 12
Hull: 6
Craft: 3 (or Upgrade 6 Shining Light to Shining Star)
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight -1, Dodge 5+, Fighter, Hunter-Killer
Weapons:
Ram - 0" range - Contact Only - 2 AD - Double Damage, Precise, Super Armour Piercing, Ram
Obedient-class Patrol Frigate
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
16/4
Armed With:
1 Gauss Cannon & 1 Light Laser Cannon Forwards
2 Gatling Railguns in all directions
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
A fairly agile hull 4/5 patrol craft. A couple of DD gauss cannon (railgun) dice, and a couple of slow-loading mini-beam dice. Gatling railguns give a small turret mount and 1 interceptor but no anti-fighter.
Speed: 10
Hull: 4
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 16/4
Crew: 16/4
Traits: Agile, Interceptors 1
Weapons:
Gauss Cannon - 10" range - F - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 3 AD - Twin-linked
Devout-class Escort Frigate
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
16/4
Armed With:
1 Light Laser Cannon Forwards
3 Gatling Railguns in all directions
Suggestions:
Manouvring ability to match the Obedient-class (obviously). Gauss cannon is gone, but in return add more gatling railguns to turret mount (1/2 again). To represent the additional flak in its other roles add a second interceptor, a couple of dice of anti-fighter and the Escort trait. Cut into light laser power as well if the ship is a bit too well armed.
Speed: 10
Hull: 4
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 16/4
Crew: 16/4
Traits: Agile, Interceptors 2, Anti-Fighter 2, Escort
Weapons:
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 5 AD - Twin-linked
Vengeful-class Laser Frigate
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
20/5
Armed With:
1 Laser Lance and 2 Light Laser Cannons Forwards
1 Gatling Railgun in all directions
Suggestions:
A nasty punch for a patrol ship - the loss of gatlings means scrub the interceptor and anti-fighter stats, but a sizeable whack of slow-loading mini-beams gives it armour-piercing firepower not common on patrol priority ships. a bit physically bigger, so probably the slightest touch slower, than the lighter Devout/Obedient-class frigates.
Speed: 8
Hull: 4
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 20/5
Crew: 20/5
Traits: -
Weapons:
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Laser Lances - 12" range - F - 2 AD - Beam, Precise
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 1 AD - Twin-linked
Skirmish Level
Steadfast-class Escort Corvette
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
21/5
Armed With:
2 Gauss Cannons Forwards
1 Light Laser Cannon Broadside
2 Gatling Railguns in all directions
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
Firstly, drop the phrase 'escort' from the ship's name to save confusion. Unlike the Devout-class, this isn't an escort; despite being bigger, its gatling fit is only the same as an Obedient-class, which is supposed to be vulnerable to fighters. Quite a sizable block of gauss firepower to prow, mini-beams to flanks, and again one interceptor and turret mount. Armour 5? Scale-wise it's a Chronos-class frigate, but with the pulse cannons turreted and the railguns fixed forward rather than the other way around.
Speed: 8
Hull: 5
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 21/5
Crew: 21/5
Traits: Interceptors 1
Weapons:
Gauss Cannon - 10" range - F - 4 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - P - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - S - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 3 AD - Twin-linked
Storm Front-class Missile Corvette
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
21/5
Armed With:
3 Missile Racks Forwards
1 Gatling Railgun in all directions
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
I take back prior comments about long range fighting. I'd suggest that the Storm Front get the same missile traits as the rest of the fleet (whatever people want the kinetic kill missiles to be) but short range - although with a shedload of attack dice (I still like the idea of one-shot racks). Gatlings are weak and offer no active protection, like those on the Vengeful-class frigate.
Speed: 8
Hull: 5
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 21/5
Crew: 21/5
Traits: -
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 12" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Missile Racks - 12" range - F - 10 AD - Super Armour Piercing, Precise, One-Shot
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 1 AD - Twin-linked
Commune-class Battle Leader
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
26/6
Armed With:
2 Laser Lances Forwards
2 Gatling Railguns in all directions
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
Again, one interceptor, no anti-fighter. H-K control trait and a small Command bonus (+1). Laser lance punch is ok but not great - but unlike light lasers or missiles its there every turn the command ship needs it. I'd like to vote to rename it 'Communion-class' as that sounds like something suitably spiritual, rather than a state-owned farm. I'm not able to translate the arcane B5wars thrust rating into a move stat, but the Commune's 4th engine on a hull that closely resembles the Steadfast suggests it should be able to hoof it where needed (so that command officers can make....tactical withdrawals?)
Speed: 10
Hull: 5
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 26/6
Crew: 26/6
Traits: Interceptors 1, Command +1, H-K Controller
Weapons:
Laser Lances - 12" range - F - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 3 AD - Twin-linked
Raid Level
Benevolent-class Heavy Scout
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
47/11
Armed With:
2 Laser Lances Forwards
7 Gatling Railguns and one Missile Rack in all directions
2 Fighter Flights
Jump Capable
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
47 Hit points is pretty massive for a raid ship, especially as its massed gatling railguns would suggest interceptors 3 and a nice anti-fighter spread. Don't go overboard on the firepower of the gatlings or missiles (note that these would be normal range versions) and it shouldn't be too bad. Hull 5, I'd suggest.
Speed: 6
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: 2 Templar Flights
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 47/11
Crew: 47/11
Traits: Interceptors 3, Anti-Fighter 3, Scout, Lumbering, Jump Point
Weapons:
Laser Lances - 15" range - F - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Missile Tubes - 24" range - T - 3 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 10 AD - Twin-linked
Vigilant-class Combat Support Ship
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
47/11
Armed With:
2 Missile Racks Forwards
7 Gatling Railguns in all directions
1 Fighter Flights, 6 H-Ks
Jump Capable
Suggestions:
Craft speaks for itself, really. Duel at range with the missiles whilst the H-Ks close and ram (handing over control to Communes if needed for the final close attack).
Speed: 6
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: 1 Templar Flight, 6 Shining Light H-Ks
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 47/11
Crew: 47/11
Traits: Interceptors 3, Anti-Fighter 3, Lumbering, Jump Point, H-K Controller
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 10 AD - Twin-linked
Enlightenment-class Invader
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
48/11
Armed With:
2 Laser Lances Forwards
2 Missile Racks Broadside
7 Gatling Railguns in all directions
2 Fighter Flights, shuttles
Suggestions:
A classic troopship; 6-10 troops and a couple of shuttle points. Again, Hull 5, keeping a tight reign on the number of gatling AD's.
Speed: 7
Hull: 5
Troops: 8
Craft: 2 Templar Flights
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 48/11
Crew: 48/11
Traits: Interceptors 3, Anti-Fighter 3, Shuttles 3, Lumbering
Weapons:
Laser Lances - 15" range - F - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Missile Tubes - 24" range - P - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Missile Tubes - 24" range - S - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 10 AD - Twin-linked
Battle Level
Prophet-class Command Ship
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
57/13
Armed With:
2 Missile Racks and 1 Gauss Cannon Forwards
2 Laser Lances and 1 Gauss Cannon Broadside
1 Missile Rack and 1 Gauss Cannon Aft
9 Gatling Railguns in all directions
6 Fighter Flights, 6 H-Ks
Jump Capable
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
A big fighter wing - qualitatively I'd suggest the Templar should only be on a par with 6-for or 5-for wing fighters, though, so it's not as good as it looks at first. 9 gatling railguns means interceptors 4 and good anti-fighter, whilst for and aft missiles replace fore and aft heavy beams on contemporary ships. Gauss cannon firepower is in all arcs but no better than that on an Obedient-class, half that of a skirmish-priority Steadfast. A very aggressive carrier/war freighter. Possibly avoid the command bonus to help the Paragon stand out. Add Carrierand H-K controller traits
Speed: 5
Hull: 6
Troops: 4
Craft: 6 Templar Flights
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 57/13
Crew: 57/13
Traits: Interceptors 4, Anti-Fighter 4, Jump Point, Carrier 2, Command +1, H-K Controller, Lumbering
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Laser Lances - 15" range - P - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - P - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Laser Lances - 15" range - S - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - S - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Missile Tubes - 24" range - A - 3 AD - Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - A - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 14 AD - Twin-linked
War Level
Paragon-class Strike Force Command Ship
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
57/13
Armed With:
4 Missile Racks and 2 Heavy Gauss Cannon Forwards
2 Laser Lances and 2 Heavy Gauss Cannon Broadside
1 Missile Rack and 2 Heavy Gauss Cannon Aft
10 Rapid Gatling Railguns, 1 Missile Rack and 1 Laser Lance in all directions
6 Fighter Flights, 6 H-Ks
Jump Capable
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
Whilst fragile for a War-priority ship, that's a humungous increase in firepower. Add in the Command bonus of +2/+3 and it should be a good buy. In terms of firepower increase, as well as doubling up the guns, upping to heavy gauss cannons would increase the damage output per gun (and range) but drop the fire rate. Go to 25", triple damage, but lose about 1/4 of the attack dice. Strictly speaking the laser lances are also heavy laser lances but there's no detectable difference between the two. The rapid gatlings are also a big deal, no less than doubling their rate of fire, for an effective 20 normal gatling railguns. That puts it more into the region of interceptors 6 or even 7 and more anti-fighter than you can shake a pointy stick at, as well as a massive number of attack dice from the turret mount. In addition to the Carrier ability of the normal Prophet, I'd recommend Fleet Carrier as well to represent the elite Strike Force fighter and command crews (along with the increased command bonus).
Speed: 5
Hull: 6
Troops: 4
Craft: 6 Templar Flights
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 57/13
Crew: 57/13
Traits: Interceptors 6, Anti-Fighter 6, Jump Point, Carrier 2, Fleet Carrier, Command +2, H-K Controller, Lumbering, Elite Crew (5)
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Missile Racks - 24" range - F - 12 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, One-Shot
Heavy Gauss Cannon - 20" range - F - 4 AD - Triple Damage, Armour Piercing
Laser Lances - 15" range - P - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Heavy Gauss Cannon - 20" range - P - 4 AD - Triple Damage, Armour Piercing
Laser Lances - 15" range - S - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Heavy Gauss Cannon - 20" range - S - 4 AD - Triple Damage, Armour Piercing
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 3 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Heavy Gauss Cannon - 20" range - A - 4 AD - Triple Damage, Armour Piercing
Missile Rack - 24" range - T - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, One-Shot
Laser Lance - 15" range - S - 2 AD - Beam, Precise
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 25 AD - Twin-linked
Ship Traits:
Hunter-Killer: A fighter with the hunter-killer trait can never remove enemy flights if it wins a dogfight, and does not count towards supporting flights for other dogfighters. It may not move or attack unless it begins its movement within 18" of a ship with the H-K Controller trait, and automatically loses dogfights if outside this control range
H-K Controller: Hunter-killers beginning their move within 18" of this ship may operate normally.
Elite Crew (X): The ship automatically has the listed crew quality. This trait cannot be lost.
Weapon Traits:
Ram: A Hunter-killer which ends its move in contact with the base stem of an enemy warship may make a ram attack after anti-fighter attacks have been resolved. Regardless of whether damage was inflicted, the ramming fighter is automatically destroyed and cannot be recovered by a Fleet Carrier.
Feel free to add comments. I'll put in actual suggested stats as I get to them.
A consolidation and expansion of comments above:
Patrol Level
Templar-class Interceptor
Armed With:
Twin Light Gatling Railguns
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
Speed: 10
Hull: 4
Craft: 6
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight +1, Dodge 2+, Fighter
Weapons:
Light Gatling Railguns - 2" range - Turret - 1 AD - Twin-linked
Shining Light-class Hunter-Killer
Armed With:
Nothing - remote-piloted kamikaze fighter.
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
For all that the Wars of the Centauri Republic has them in packs of 6, I like the idea of hunter-killers being big, solo units - one superheavy feels like it should do more damage and be easier to control than a flock of lighter ships. Unlike the 'reactor overload' option of the Klikkita(k) or the suicide attack of Dilgar Thoruns, this is from the ground up purely and simply a remote missile. I'd be tempted to say it should be unable to win dogfights, breaching-pod fashion (although be perhaps less likely to lose than most pods), have a worse dodge like most super-heavies, and cause a much, much bigger bang than Klikkitaks. The simplest rule I've come up with so far for remote control is that they can only move if they start the fighter movement phase within X" - suggestions please - of a ship with the Hunter-Killer Control trait. Try 18" for a starting value.
Speed: 10
Hull: 5
Craft: 6
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight -1, Dodge 5+, Fighter, Hunter-Killer
Weapons:
Ram - 0" range - Contact Only - 2 AD - Double Damage, Precise, Armour Piercing, Ram
Shining Star-class Improved Hunter-Killer
Armed With:
Nothing - remote-piloted kamikaze fighter.
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
The key difference between the two is that the Shining Star has armour and more hull durability under the armour to boot. The difference in ramming damage is fairly minimal but it's a lot harder to stop - probably upping hull 5 to hull 6, and giving the ram super AP instead of AP as it's a heavier, tougher fighter to drive further into the hull before breaking up and exploding.
Speed: 12
Hull: 6
Craft: 3 (or Upgrade 6 Shining Light to Shining Star)
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight -1, Dodge 5+, Fighter, Hunter-Killer
Weapons:
Ram - 0" range - Contact Only - 2 AD - Double Damage, Precise, Super Armour Piercing, Ram
Obedient-class Patrol Frigate
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
16/4
Armed With:
1 Gauss Cannon & 1 Light Laser Cannon Forwards
2 Gatling Railguns in all directions
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
A fairly agile hull 4/5 patrol craft. A couple of DD gauss cannon (railgun) dice, and a couple of slow-loading mini-beam dice. Gatling railguns give a small turret mount and 1 interceptor but no anti-fighter.
Speed: 10
Hull: 4
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 16/4
Crew: 16/4
Traits: Agile, Interceptors 1
Weapons:
Gauss Cannon - 10" range - F - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 3 AD - Twin-linked
Devout-class Escort Frigate
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
16/4
Armed With:
1 Light Laser Cannon Forwards
3 Gatling Railguns in all directions
Suggestions:
Manouvring ability to match the Obedient-class (obviously). Gauss cannon is gone, but in return add more gatling railguns to turret mount (1/2 again). To represent the additional flak in its other roles add a second interceptor, a couple of dice of anti-fighter and the Escort trait. Cut into light laser power as well if the ship is a bit too well armed.
Speed: 10
Hull: 4
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 16/4
Crew: 16/4
Traits: Agile, Interceptors 2, Anti-Fighter 2, Escort
Weapons:
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 5 AD - Twin-linked
Vengeful-class Laser Frigate
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
20/5
Armed With:
1 Laser Lance and 2 Light Laser Cannons Forwards
1 Gatling Railgun in all directions
Suggestions:
A nasty punch for a patrol ship - the loss of gatlings means scrub the interceptor and anti-fighter stats, but a sizeable whack of slow-loading mini-beams gives it armour-piercing firepower not common on patrol priority ships. a bit physically bigger, so probably the slightest touch slower, than the lighter Devout/Obedient-class frigates.
Speed: 8
Hull: 4
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 20/5
Crew: 20/5
Traits: -
Weapons:
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Laser Lances - 12" range - F - 2 AD - Beam, Precise
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 1 AD - Twin-linked
Skirmish Level
Steadfast-class Escort Corvette
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
21/5
Armed With:
2 Gauss Cannons Forwards
1 Light Laser Cannon Broadside
2 Gatling Railguns in all directions
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
Firstly, drop the phrase 'escort' from the ship's name to save confusion. Unlike the Devout-class, this isn't an escort; despite being bigger, its gatling fit is only the same as an Obedient-class, which is supposed to be vulnerable to fighters. Quite a sizable block of gauss firepower to prow, mini-beams to flanks, and again one interceptor and turret mount. Armour 5? Scale-wise it's a Chronos-class frigate, but with the pulse cannons turreted and the railguns fixed forward rather than the other way around.
Speed: 8
Hull: 5
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 21/5
Crew: 21/5
Traits: Interceptors 1
Weapons:
Gauss Cannon - 10" range - F - 4 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - P - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Light Laser Cannon - 15" range - S - 2 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 3 AD - Twin-linked
Storm Front-class Missile Corvette
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
21/5
Armed With:
3 Missile Racks Forwards
1 Gatling Railgun in all directions
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
I take back prior comments about long range fighting. I'd suggest that the Storm Front get the same missile traits as the rest of the fleet (whatever people want the kinetic kill missiles to be) but short range - although with a shedload of attack dice (I still like the idea of one-shot racks). Gatlings are weak and offer no active protection, like those on the Vengeful-class frigate.
Speed: 8
Hull: 5
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 21/5
Crew: 21/5
Traits: -
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 12" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Missile Racks - 12" range - F - 10 AD - Super Armour Piercing, Precise, One-Shot
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 1 AD - Twin-linked
Commune-class Battle Leader
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
26/6
Armed With:
2 Laser Lances Forwards
2 Gatling Railguns in all directions
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
Again, one interceptor, no anti-fighter. H-K control trait and a small Command bonus (+1). Laser lance punch is ok but not great - but unlike light lasers or missiles its there every turn the command ship needs it. I'd like to vote to rename it 'Communion-class' as that sounds like something suitably spiritual, rather than a state-owned farm. I'm not able to translate the arcane B5wars thrust rating into a move stat, but the Commune's 4th engine on a hull that closely resembles the Steadfast suggests it should be able to hoof it where needed (so that command officers can make....tactical withdrawals?)
Speed: 10
Hull: 5
Troops: 1
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 26/6
Crew: 26/6
Traits: Interceptors 1, Command +1, H-K Controller
Weapons:
Laser Lances - 12" range - F - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 3 AD - Twin-linked
Raid Level
Benevolent-class Heavy Scout
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
47/11
Armed With:
2 Laser Lances Forwards
7 Gatling Railguns and one Missile Rack in all directions
2 Fighter Flights
Jump Capable
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
47 Hit points is pretty massive for a raid ship, especially as its massed gatling railguns would suggest interceptors 3 and a nice anti-fighter spread. Don't go overboard on the firepower of the gatlings or missiles (note that these would be normal range versions) and it shouldn't be too bad. Hull 5, I'd suggest.
Speed: 6
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: 2 Templar Flights
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 47/11
Crew: 47/11
Traits: Interceptors 3, Anti-Fighter 3, Scout, Lumbering, Jump Point
Weapons:
Laser Lances - 15" range - F - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Missile Tubes - 24" range - T - 3 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 10 AD - Twin-linked
Vigilant-class Combat Support Ship
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
47/11
Armed With:
2 Missile Racks Forwards
7 Gatling Railguns in all directions
1 Fighter Flights, 6 H-Ks
Jump Capable
Suggestions:
Craft speaks for itself, really. Duel at range with the missiles whilst the H-Ks close and ram (handing over control to Communes if needed for the final close attack).
Speed: 6
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: 1 Templar Flight, 6 Shining Light H-Ks
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 47/11
Crew: 47/11
Traits: Interceptors 3, Anti-Fighter 3, Lumbering, Jump Point, H-K Controller
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 10 AD - Twin-linked
Enlightenment-class Invader
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
48/11
Armed With:
2 Laser Lances Forwards
2 Missile Racks Broadside
7 Gatling Railguns in all directions
2 Fighter Flights, shuttles
Suggestions:
A classic troopship; 6-10 troops and a couple of shuttle points. Again, Hull 5, keeping a tight reign on the number of gatling AD's.
Speed: 7
Hull: 5
Troops: 8
Craft: 2 Templar Flights
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 48/11
Crew: 48/11
Traits: Interceptors 3, Anti-Fighter 3, Shuttles 3, Lumbering
Weapons:
Laser Lances - 15" range - F - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Missile Tubes - 24" range - P - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Missile Tubes - 24" range - S - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 10 AD - Twin-linked
Battle Level
Prophet-class Command Ship
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
57/13
Armed With:
2 Missile Racks and 1 Gauss Cannon Forwards
2 Laser Lances and 1 Gauss Cannon Broadside
1 Missile Rack and 1 Gauss Cannon Aft
9 Gatling Railguns in all directions
6 Fighter Flights, 6 H-Ks
Jump Capable
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
A big fighter wing - qualitatively I'd suggest the Templar should only be on a par with 6-for or 5-for wing fighters, though, so it's not as good as it looks at first. 9 gatling railguns means interceptors 4 and good anti-fighter, whilst for and aft missiles replace fore and aft heavy beams on contemporary ships. Gauss cannon firepower is in all arcs but no better than that on an Obedient-class, half that of a skirmish-priority Steadfast. A very aggressive carrier/war freighter. Possibly avoid the command bonus to help the Paragon stand out. Add Carrierand H-K controller traits
Speed: 5
Hull: 6
Troops: 4
Craft: 6 Templar Flights
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 57/13
Crew: 57/13
Traits: Interceptors 4, Anti-Fighter 4, Jump Point, Carrier 2, Command +1, H-K Controller, Lumbering
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Laser Lances - 15" range - P - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - P - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Laser Lances - 15" range - S - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - S - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Missile Tubes - 24" range - A - 3 AD - Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - A - 2 AD - Double Damage, Armour Piercing
Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 14 AD - Twin-linked
War Level
Paragon-class Strike Force Command Ship
Hit Points (average from random direction, scaled by 45% to ACTA):
57/13
Armed With:
4 Missile Racks and 2 Heavy Gauss Cannon Forwards
2 Laser Lances and 2 Heavy Gauss Cannon Broadside
1 Missile Rack and 2 Heavy Gauss Cannon Aft
10 Rapid Gatling Railguns, 1 Missile Rack and 1 Laser Lance in all directions
6 Fighter Flights, 6 H-Ks
Jump Capable
Relevant Quotes:
Suggestions:
Whilst fragile for a War-priority ship, that's a humungous increase in firepower. Add in the Command bonus of +2/+3 and it should be a good buy. In terms of firepower increase, as well as doubling up the guns, upping to heavy gauss cannons would increase the damage output per gun (and range) but drop the fire rate. Go to 25", triple damage, but lose about 1/4 of the attack dice. Strictly speaking the laser lances are also heavy laser lances but there's no detectable difference between the two. The rapid gatlings are also a big deal, no less than doubling their rate of fire, for an effective 20 normal gatling railguns. That puts it more into the region of interceptors 6 or even 7 and more anti-fighter than you can shake a pointy stick at, as well as a massive number of attack dice from the turret mount. In addition to the Carrier ability of the normal Prophet, I'd recommend Fleet Carrier as well to represent the elite Strike Force fighter and command crews (along with the increased command bonus).
Speed: 5
Hull: 6
Troops: 4
Craft: 6 Templar Flights
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 57/13
Crew: 57/13
Traits: Interceptors 6, Anti-Fighter 6, Jump Point, Carrier 2, Fleet Carrier, Command +2, H-K Controller, Lumbering, Elite Crew (5)
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Missile Racks - 24" range - F - 12 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, One-Shot
Heavy Gauss Cannon - 20" range - F - 4 AD - Triple Damage, Armour Piercing
Laser Lances - 15" range - P - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Heavy Gauss Cannon - 20" range - P - 4 AD - Triple Damage, Armour Piercing
Laser Lances - 15" range - S - 3 AD - Beam, Precise
Heavy Gauss Cannon - 20" range - S - 4 AD - Triple Damage, Armour Piercing
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 3 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Heavy Gauss Cannon - 20" range - A - 4 AD - Triple Damage, Armour Piercing
Missile Rack - 24" range - T - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, One-Shot
Laser Lance - 15" range - S - 2 AD - Beam, Precise
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 25 AD - Twin-linked
Ship Traits:
Hunter-Killer: A fighter with the hunter-killer trait can never remove enemy flights if it wins a dogfight, and does not count towards supporting flights for other dogfighters. It may not move or attack unless it begins its movement within 18" of a ship with the H-K Controller trait, and automatically loses dogfights if outside this control range
H-K Controller: Hunter-killers beginning their move within 18" of this ship may operate normally.
Elite Crew (X): The ship automatically has the listed crew quality. This trait cannot be lost.
Weapon Traits:
Ram: A Hunter-killer which ends its move in contact with the base stem of an enemy warship may make a ram attack after anti-fighter attacks have been resolved. Regardless of whether damage was inflicted, the ramming fighter is automatically destroyed and cannot be recovered by a Fleet Carrier.
Feel free to add comments. I'll put in actual suggested stats as I get to them.
Here some of my Centauri. They still have the Laser Theme, but I changed out the Particle Beams and some of the Projectors for Light Ion Cannons.
Jenas Attack Frigate
Hull 4 PL Patrol ( 2 per Point)
Speed 14 Special Dodge 5+, Atmospheric Agile
Troops - Craft --------------
Turns 2 / 90°
Damage 6 / 2 Crew 7 / 3
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Plasma Cannon F 8 2 AP
Light Ion Cannons T 8 2 Twin-Linked
Balciron Destroyer
Hull 4 PL Skirmish
Speed 16 Special Agile
Turn 2 / 45° Craft --------------
Troops 1
Damage: 18/6 Crew 18/8
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Medium Plasma Cannon F 8 4 AP T-L
Tactical Laser F 15 4 Mini Beam
Light Ion Cannons F 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 8 4 Twin-Linked
Celerian Warcruiser
Hull 5 PL Raid
Speed 7 Special Jumppoint Anti Fighter 2
Turn 1 / 45° Craft
Troops 3 --------------
Damage: 32/8 Crew 30/8
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Assault Laser F 20 4 Mini Beam Precise
Heavy Plasma Cannon F 15 8 AP DD
Light Ion Cannons F 8 8 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 8 4 Twin-Linked
Optine Battlecruiser
Hull 6 PL Battle
Speed 6 Special Jumppoint, Interceptors 1, Anti Fighter 2 Lumbering
Troops 4 Craft --------------
Turns 1 / 45°
Damage 42 / 10 Crew 48 / 14
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Assault Laser F 20 12 Mini-Beam Precise
Particel Projector F 12 12 T-L SL
Particel Projector P 12 8 T-L SL
Particel Projector S 12 8 T-L SL
Particel Projector A 12 8 T-L SL
Light Ion Cannons F 5 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 5 6 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 5 6 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 5 4 Twin-Linked
Jenas Attack Frigate
Hull 4 PL Patrol ( 2 per Point)
Speed 14 Special Dodge 5+, Atmospheric Agile
Troops - Craft --------------
Turns 2 / 90°
Damage 6 / 2 Crew 7 / 3
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Plasma Cannon F 8 2 AP
Light Ion Cannons T 8 2 Twin-Linked
Balciron Destroyer
Hull 4 PL Skirmish
Speed 16 Special Agile
Turn 2 / 45° Craft --------------
Troops 1
Damage: 18/6 Crew 18/8
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Medium Plasma Cannon F 8 4 AP T-L
Tactical Laser F 15 4 Mini Beam
Light Ion Cannons F 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 8 4 Twin-Linked
Celerian Warcruiser
Hull 5 PL Raid
Speed 7 Special Jumppoint Anti Fighter 2
Turn 1 / 45° Craft
Troops 3 --------------
Damage: 32/8 Crew 30/8
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Assault Laser F 20 4 Mini Beam Precise
Heavy Plasma Cannon F 15 8 AP DD
Light Ion Cannons F 8 8 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 8 4 Twin-Linked
Optine Battlecruiser
Hull 6 PL Battle
Speed 6 Special Jumppoint, Interceptors 1, Anti Fighter 2 Lumbering
Troops 4 Craft --------------
Turns 1 / 45°
Damage 42 / 10 Crew 48 / 14
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Assault Laser F 20 12 Mini-Beam Precise
Particel Projector F 12 12 T-L SL
Particel Projector P 12 8 T-L SL
Particel Projector S 12 8 T-L SL
Particel Projector A 12 8 T-L SL
Light Ion Cannons F 5 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 5 6 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 5 6 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 5 4 Twin-Linked
Looks good. Only comments:
1) Balciron-class is bloody fragile for a skirmish-priority ship with no active defences. There are patrol level ships that can take more hits, and it's not that manouvrable or well armed. Hull 5 would put it more into the Vorchan/Warbird bracket where it should be sitting.
2) Optine - 6 dice of forward firing double damage beams is the same as 12 dice of single damage beams. 12 dice of precise beams is not far short of the main guns on a Sharlin-class warcruiser. Granted they're shorter range but with the Particle Projectors and Light Ion Cannons it's not short of secondary guns. Although I suppose they are slow-loading. I dunno....I guess I'd have to see how it playtests.
3) No fighter capacity at all? Haven't got the document in front of me, but is even the Optine not a carrier?
Other thought - Initative values for the fleets. The Orieni War had 4 major groups fighting on the two sides:
1) Orieni Strike Groups
The top of the heap - they got the best ships, the best crew, the most regular rotations off the line for repair and replacement and were first in the queue for refits. They're a veteran/elite outfit that I've tried to cover by the higher command bonus and fleet carrier control on the Paragons, their exclusive ship
2) Centauri Republic Royal Navy
The Centauri Fleet, rapidly approaching the height of its powers. Marginally better qualitatively than the Orieni on average as the Centauri didn't cream their best crew off into seperate units. Higher command structure was a lot less organised, though, so fleet initiative probably no better.
3) The Hand of the Blessed
Orieni regulars. Supposed to take over from the Strike Groups for pacification, garrison, and any engagement which turns into a war of attrition. Better trained but less experienced than their Centauri counterparts at the outset of the war.
4) Noble House militaries
Centauri family fleets. Usually badly crewed, sometimes badly maintained and almost always badly led, the House fleets were the Orieni's main opponents in the opening engagements and were one of the major reasons the Centauri got their backsides handed to them so much in the first couple of years. Later on, House fleets received regular CRRN officers first as 'advisors' then as 'instructors' and finally as commanders - by which time the house fleets had essentially become an appendage to the regular navy.
The option of a few 'house military' units might work quite well - say 2 points worth of the fleet that can buy 3 points worth of regular ships, except that these ships have sub-par CQ, can't use special actions other than Initiate Jump Point!, and double their crippled/skeleton crewed values (as the ill-traind crew can't cope).
1) Balciron-class is bloody fragile for a skirmish-priority ship with no active defences. There are patrol level ships that can take more hits, and it's not that manouvrable or well armed. Hull 5 would put it more into the Vorchan/Warbird bracket where it should be sitting.
2) Optine - 6 dice of forward firing double damage beams is the same as 12 dice of single damage beams. 12 dice of precise beams is not far short of the main guns on a Sharlin-class warcruiser. Granted they're shorter range but with the Particle Projectors and Light Ion Cannons it's not short of secondary guns. Although I suppose they are slow-loading. I dunno....I guess I'd have to see how it playtests.
3) No fighter capacity at all? Haven't got the document in front of me, but is even the Optine not a carrier?
Other thought - Initative values for the fleets. The Orieni War had 4 major groups fighting on the two sides:
1) Orieni Strike Groups
The top of the heap - they got the best ships, the best crew, the most regular rotations off the line for repair and replacement and were first in the queue for refits. They're a veteran/elite outfit that I've tried to cover by the higher command bonus and fleet carrier control on the Paragons, their exclusive ship
2) Centauri Republic Royal Navy
The Centauri Fleet, rapidly approaching the height of its powers. Marginally better qualitatively than the Orieni on average as the Centauri didn't cream their best crew off into seperate units. Higher command structure was a lot less organised, though, so fleet initiative probably no better.
3) The Hand of the Blessed
Orieni regulars. Supposed to take over from the Strike Groups for pacification, garrison, and any engagement which turns into a war of attrition. Better trained but less experienced than their Centauri counterparts at the outset of the war.
4) Noble House militaries
Centauri family fleets. Usually badly crewed, sometimes badly maintained and almost always badly led, the House fleets were the Orieni's main opponents in the opening engagements and were one of the major reasons the Centauri got their backsides handed to them so much in the first couple of years. Later on, House fleets received regular CRRN officers first as 'advisors' then as 'instructors' and finally as commanders - by which time the house fleets had essentially become an appendage to the regular navy.
The option of a few 'house military' units might work quite well - say 2 points worth of the fleet that can buy 3 points worth of regular ships, except that these ships have sub-par CQ, can't use special actions other than Initiate Jump Point!, and double their crippled/skeleton crewed values (as the ill-traind crew can't cope).
Oh, I forget to change the Beams on the Optine. Mhm, mist. I'll include that in my overhaul of the ships this weekend.
I think there is a varient of the Optine who changes it into a battle carrier.
During the O-CW the Centauri lacked carriers for large numbers of fighters. Instead they used flights of Assault Fighters against enemy ships and counted on their smaller guns to destroy fighters.
I think there is a varient of the Optine who changes it into a battle carrier.
During the O-CW the Centauri lacked carriers for large numbers of fighters. Instead they used flights of Assault Fighters against enemy ships and counted on their smaller guns to destroy fighters.
No problem.
I thought about the Centaurum for something like this:
Centaurum Battleship
Hull 6 PL War
Speed 4 Special Jumppoint Command +2 Anti-Fighter 2 Lumbering
Troops 8 Craft 2 Flights Glaive
Damage:75/22 Crew 82/24
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Assault Laser F 20 12 Mini Beam Precise
Heavy Plasma Cannon F 15 12 AP DD
Heavy Plasma Cannon P 15 8 AP DD
Heavy Plasma Cannon A 15 8 AP DD
Light Ion Cannons F 8 20 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 8 10 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 8 10 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 8 16 Twin-Linked
Although it is a poor War level choice. It will take some time until I will have converted my 1st Ed stats to 2nd Ed as I have to rethink many of the Centauri's weapons.
I thought about the Centaurum for something like this:
Centaurum Battleship
Hull 6 PL War
Speed 4 Special Jumppoint Command +2 Anti-Fighter 2 Lumbering
Troops 8 Craft 2 Flights Glaive
Damage:75/22 Crew 82/24
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Assault Laser F 20 12 Mini Beam Precise
Heavy Plasma Cannon F 15 12 AP DD
Heavy Plasma Cannon P 15 8 AP DD
Heavy Plasma Cannon A 15 8 AP DD
Light Ion Cannons F 8 20 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 8 10 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 8 10 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 8 16 Twin-Linked
Although it is a poor War level choice. It will take some time until I will have converted my 1st Ed stats to 2nd Ed as I have to rethink many of the Centauri's weapons.
Some very intersting work here 
few comments
Centaurum does not look that weak - 12 dice precise minbeam is nasty
The Balicron has good guns and is very fast - and has agile which makes a big difference.
re CQ - might I suggest for the Strike Groups :
Elite Crew (X) This ship is crewed by some of the best the race can offer and hence has CQ X in one off scenarios and campaigns as well as in general play. If this trait is lost during play the CQ immediately becomes 4, modified by any other effect acting on the ship as usual.
few comments
Centaurum does not look that weak - 12 dice precise minbeam is nasty
The Balicron has good guns and is very fast - and has agile which makes a big difference.
re CQ - might I suggest for the Strike Groups :
Elite Crew (X) This ship is crewed by some of the best the race can offer and hence has CQ X in one off scenarios and campaigns as well as in general play. If this trait is lost during play the CQ immediately becomes 4, modified by any other effect acting on the ship as usual.
Pinched and used (slightly modified).
We really ought to try and compare and contrast these.
Comparing the Centaurum to the Paragon, closing steadily on one another, every turn. A very unsubtle test but a good first one. Critical hits add merely their average damage, and as both are command +2 ships I've done simultaneous firing.
Range 30"
Nothing. Neither ship can reach so far.
Damage Status:
None.
Centaurum: 75 hit points, Paragon 57 hit points.
Range 20"
The Paragon might as well pop the one-shot missile racks (that's what they're there for!), landing 19 damage on the Centaurum. Ouch!
The Heavy Gauss Cannons follow up, landing another 5. Double ouch!
The Centaurum, assuming no loss of firepower, responds with the assault laser, which bypasses the interceptors and the armour and does 9 damage in reply.
Damage Status:
Centaurum: 52 hit points, Paragon 48 hit points.
Range 10"
Paragon's salvo is substantially wimpier this time - the missile racks are empty and the missile tubes reloading. Fortunately the turreted lances are in range, which help a bit. Centaurum takes 8 more damage.
Centaurum's Plasma Cannons are now in range, but are largely ineffective against the Paragon's interceptors and armour. Fortunately the assault laser couldn't care less about either and the Paragon takes 10 more damage.
Damage Status:
Centaurum: 44 hit points, Paragon 38 hit points.
Point blank
Paragon gets a last volley of missiles from the front tubes, then spins up the rapid gatlings. 21 damage brings the Centaurum to within a hair of crippling.
Centaurum replies in kind, easily overwhelming the interceptors with the light ion cannons then delivering a pasting from the plasma weapons. 20 damage is inflicted back, pushing the Paragon over into crippled status.
Damage Status:
Centaurum: 23 hit points, Paragon 10 hit points (Crippled).
Aft guns 10"
Paragon fires the rapid gatlings again - 8 damage cripples its opponent as light ion cannons abrade a couple more hit points away.
Damage Status:
Centaurum: 15 hit points (Crippled), Paragon 8 hit points (Crippled).
Hmm......the two ships seem to batter one another into wrecks, which looks about right. If Centaurum closes more slowly in ion range and gets more assault laser fire in, it wins, or if it turns in faster to keep the Paragon at least in broadside arc.
The Paragon makes up for it as a decent medium carrier, though.
Personally I think the paragon is probably the more dangerous ship - as a result the Centaurum either needs gunning up (not sure how - more plasma is the obvious one) or the Paragon gunning down. Possibly dropping the turreted lance?
We need to do some proper playtests at some point. I shall contact my minions and arrange to exterminate some infidelis centauri.
We really ought to try and compare and contrast these.
Comparing the Centaurum to the Paragon, closing steadily on one another, every turn. A very unsubtle test but a good first one. Critical hits add merely their average damage, and as both are command +2 ships I've done simultaneous firing.
Range 30"
Nothing. Neither ship can reach so far.
Damage Status:
None.
Centaurum: 75 hit points, Paragon 57 hit points.
Range 20"
The Paragon might as well pop the one-shot missile racks (that's what they're there for!), landing 19 damage on the Centaurum. Ouch!
The Heavy Gauss Cannons follow up, landing another 5. Double ouch!
The Centaurum, assuming no loss of firepower, responds with the assault laser, which bypasses the interceptors and the armour and does 9 damage in reply.
Damage Status:
Centaurum: 52 hit points, Paragon 48 hit points.
Range 10"
Paragon's salvo is substantially wimpier this time - the missile racks are empty and the missile tubes reloading. Fortunately the turreted lances are in range, which help a bit. Centaurum takes 8 more damage.
Centaurum's Plasma Cannons are now in range, but are largely ineffective against the Paragon's interceptors and armour. Fortunately the assault laser couldn't care less about either and the Paragon takes 10 more damage.
Damage Status:
Centaurum: 44 hit points, Paragon 38 hit points.
Point blank
Paragon gets a last volley of missiles from the front tubes, then spins up the rapid gatlings. 21 damage brings the Centaurum to within a hair of crippling.
Centaurum replies in kind, easily overwhelming the interceptors with the light ion cannons then delivering a pasting from the plasma weapons. 20 damage is inflicted back, pushing the Paragon over into crippled status.
Damage Status:
Centaurum: 23 hit points, Paragon 10 hit points (Crippled).
Aft guns 10"
Paragon fires the rapid gatlings again - 8 damage cripples its opponent as light ion cannons abrade a couple more hit points away.
Damage Status:
Centaurum: 15 hit points (Crippled), Paragon 8 hit points (Crippled).
Hmm......the two ships seem to batter one another into wrecks, which looks about right. If Centaurum closes more slowly in ion range and gets more assault laser fire in, it wins, or if it turns in faster to keep the Paragon at least in broadside arc.
The Paragon makes up for it as a decent medium carrier, though.
Personally I think the paragon is probably the more dangerous ship - as a result the Centaurum either needs gunning up (not sure how - more plasma is the obvious one) or the Paragon gunning down. Possibly dropping the turreted lance?
We need to do some proper playtests at some point. I shall contact my minions and arrange to exterminate some infidelis centauri.
I think it's ok, to be honest - the Paragon isn't really designed for a one-on-one fight; a significant proportion of its cost is tied up in Fleet Carrier and a patrol point's worth of Templars, plus equal firepower (by and large) in all arcs, whereas the Centaurum is death from the front and largely inoffensive from the rear.
One observation: The Centaurum's Assault Laser is a mini-beam whilst the Celerian's and Optine's are full beam weapons.
Paragon - Centaurum looks balanced.
Prophet - Optine - 12 dice of beam weapons would just be wrong. 12 dice of mini-beams is equivalent to a 6 dice beam which is precise rather than double damage. Back it up with the particle projectors and you have impressive secondaries.
Up the Light ions to the same 8" range as everthing else and you have a good starting point for playtesting....
Optine Battlecruiser
Hull 6 PL Battle
Speed 6 Special Jumppoint, Interceptors 1, Anti Fighter 2 Lumbering
Troops 4 Craft --------------
Turns 1 / 45°
Damage 42 / 10 Crew 48 / 14
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Assault Laser F 20 12 AP Mini-BeamPrecise
Assault Laser A 20 4 AP Mini-Beam Precise
Particel Projector F 12 12 T-L Slow-loading
Particel Projector P 12 8 T-L Slow-loading
Particel Projector S 12 8 T-L Slow-loading
Particel Projector A 12 8 T-L Slow-loading
Light Ion Cannons F 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 8 6 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 8 6 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 8 4 Twin-Linked
That gives the Optine the same assault laser armament as its bigger cousin, but the Centaurum has rapid-firing plasma cannons and the ability to sustain the rate of fire of its lighter secondary guns.
As an observation, the Optine having interceptors 1 and the Centaurum not doesn't make sense - a command ship should have them if anything does.
Vigilant - Celerian
Again, decide if an assault laser is a beam or mini-beam. If it's a mini-beam, it definitely wants gunning up a bit. The Celerian's plasma cannon, assault laser and focused firepower make it decent heavy
gunship, aiming to get to medium/close range. The Vigilant's missiles are more or less a counterpart to the assault laser.
10 AD twin-linked in a turret is pretty comparable to 8 forward, with some side batteries. The main issue is comparing the effectiveness of the hunter-killers, which have to make up for the heavy plasma cannons. They don't - quite - but should be more tactically flexible.
Balciron Destroyer - Steadfast Corvette
The Balciron is a sort of proto-Vorchan; it looks fast and handy, and the tactical laser (might I suggest sticking to one name, even if B5wars had variation? Add in precise again?) and medium plasma cannon need to compare across. It's big weakness is Hull 4 and only 18 hits. Yes, it's bloody nippy but I'm skeptical how much this helps.
The Steadfast is tougher. Half the speed, and not agile, but it can take 21 damage, is hull 5 and has an interceptor to boot.
That said, a head-on strafing run results in about 6 damage each, and the difference in broadside power is pretty minimal.
Technically it should match against the Storm Front as well, but the Storm Front is really not designed for anything but the one-time pass so it'd be an unfair comparison one way or another - the one-use racks on average blowing the Balciron to bits in one volley if it can catch the more agile ship in the 12" forwards cone of death. I suspect the Storm Front may be a bit overpowered even with the one-shot nature of the racks; I'm tempted to drop it to 6 tubes/10 racks or even 6 tubes/8 racks.
[/i]
One observation: The Centaurum's Assault Laser is a mini-beam whilst the Celerian's and Optine's are full beam weapons.
Paragon - Centaurum looks balanced.
Prophet - Optine - 12 dice of beam weapons would just be wrong. 12 dice of mini-beams is equivalent to a 6 dice beam which is precise rather than double damage. Back it up with the particle projectors and you have impressive secondaries.
Up the Light ions to the same 8" range as everthing else and you have a good starting point for playtesting....
Optine Battlecruiser
Hull 6 PL Battle
Speed 6 Special Jumppoint, Interceptors 1, Anti Fighter 2 Lumbering
Troops 4 Craft --------------
Turns 1 / 45°
Damage 42 / 10 Crew 48 / 14
Weapons Arc Range AD Special
Assault Laser F 20 12 AP Mini-BeamPrecise
Assault Laser A 20 4 AP Mini-Beam Precise
Particel Projector F 12 12 T-L Slow-loading
Particel Projector P 12 8 T-L Slow-loading
Particel Projector S 12 8 T-L Slow-loading
Particel Projector A 12 8 T-L Slow-loading
Light Ion Cannons F 8 4 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons P 8 6 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons S 8 6 Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannons A 8 4 Twin-Linked
That gives the Optine the same assault laser armament as its bigger cousin, but the Centaurum has rapid-firing plasma cannons and the ability to sustain the rate of fire of its lighter secondary guns.
As an observation, the Optine having interceptors 1 and the Centaurum not doesn't make sense - a command ship should have them if anything does.
Vigilant - Celerian
Again, decide if an assault laser is a beam or mini-beam. If it's a mini-beam, it definitely wants gunning up a bit. The Celerian's plasma cannon, assault laser and focused firepower make it decent heavy
gunship, aiming to get to medium/close range. The Vigilant's missiles are more or less a counterpart to the assault laser.
10 AD twin-linked in a turret is pretty comparable to 8 forward, with some side batteries. The main issue is comparing the effectiveness of the hunter-killers, which have to make up for the heavy plasma cannons. They don't - quite - but should be more tactically flexible.
Balciron Destroyer - Steadfast Corvette
The Balciron is a sort of proto-Vorchan; it looks fast and handy, and the tactical laser (might I suggest sticking to one name, even if B5wars had variation? Add in precise again?) and medium plasma cannon need to compare across. It's big weakness is Hull 4 and only 18 hits. Yes, it's bloody nippy but I'm skeptical how much this helps.
The Steadfast is tougher. Half the speed, and not agile, but it can take 21 damage, is hull 5 and has an interceptor to boot.
That said, a head-on strafing run results in about 6 damage each, and the difference in broadside power is pretty minimal.
Technically it should match against the Storm Front as well, but the Storm Front is really not designed for anything but the one-time pass so it'd be an unfair comparison one way or another - the one-use racks on average blowing the Balciron to bits in one volley if it can catch the more agile ship in the 12" forwards cone of death. I suspect the Storm Front may be a bit overpowered even with the one-shot nature of the racks; I'm tempted to drop it to 6 tubes/10 racks or even 6 tubes/8 racks.
[/i]
Damn it, I forget to change the Lasers on the Celerian and Optine.
My fault, sorry
.
I'm not satisfied with my stats for the small Centauri ships. I have to go through them again and make some changes so that they fit in better. Perhaps I'll change the Balciron to a forward only armamaned to make it more into an early Vorchan.
My fault, sorry
.I'm not satisfied with my stats for the small Centauri ships. I have to go through them again and make some changes so that they fit in better. Perhaps I'll change the Balciron to a forward only armamaned to make it more into an early Vorchan.
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