So fellow forum member Belisknar and I got together this evening and tested out the vehicle rules. We ran into a lot of confusing things...
Here's the scenario... Belisknar was driving in his AFV thru a valley. He was accompanied by a friend in battledress and an FGMP-14 and two good buddies packing laser rifles. Belisknar has upgraded his AFV with a vehicular cannon and a really kicking stereo system.
I was cruising around in my G-Carrier, with my wife who carries around a rocket launcher and wears combat armor. We had a couple henchmen sporting gauss rifles in the back. Since I am very law abiding, I complied with my benevolent government's request to swap out my G-Carrier's fusion gun with a laser cannon. The G-carrier had no entertainment system, and everyone was very sad.
Before starting, we decided that:
* We would use the armor and hull values from here: http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=136&t=114112
* All personnel have all 7's for their stats, and Skill 2 in whatever needed to be done.
* We assumed initiative works as in normal combat, but for simplicity we played it as each side has an initiative score rather than each individual crew member.
* We would do this by RAW as much as possible.
The G-carrier's sensors detected the AFV 5km away - Belisknar's sound system was that awesome we heard it that far away, and my gang convinced me they had to have it. Since I'm not the greatest tactician, and we were all hopped up on goofballs, and I didn't remember the rule about how much one could decelerate in a turn, so I sped in at max speed to within 1km. You see, the laser doesn't have the scope trait, so anything above 1km is extreme range. Gunner didn't want to deal with that, you see.
Question 1: Is there any way to get the scope trait on a vehicle weapon in the CRB? Didn't see it. And for some reason a Cr50 rifle scope doesn't seem like it would work on a vehicular weapon.
The laser missed the AFV by a mile, and Belisknar realized that it wasn't a laser light show to go with the awesome music. He realized someone was after his sound system!
Henchman number one shoved his gauss rifle barrel out the firing port and let rip at the AFV.
Question 2: Do passengers shooting from a vehicle use the vehicle speed penalties (-1 per speed band difference) or the personal combat speed penalties (-1 per 10m of relative movement). The former gives the passenger a chance to hit, the latter does not. We decided to go with the former. But clarification would be good.
Despite the massive penalties, henchman #1 managed to hit.
Question 3: Gauss rifle has an AP 5. How does that work with differences in scale? Does it ignore 5 points of armor at any scale? That's what the RAW reads... Armor doesn't scale, damage does.
So, by RAW, so we let it bypass the AFV's armor completely. With the damage scaling, gauss rifle does 2 points of hull damage.
Now that Belisknar is aware of the Allanimal's G-Carrier of Doom [note, and spoiler: It was poorly named...], he says to FGMP dude, "why don't you jump out of the AFV and light that G-Carrier up?" The reply was "Sure Belisknar, but ...."
Question 4: What exactly are the rules for getting in and out of a vehicle during combat?
We decided that it was a minor action to open the hatch or close the hatch, and a minor action to move out of the hatch, and unless there was some grav assist on the battledress (there wasn't), the vehicle had to be going speed 2 or less of the consequences would be dire.
So, Belisknar had this great plan to slow down (minor action? Not sure... is it?), good buddy with laser rifle #1 would open the hatch (minor action), Friend with FGMP would jump out (minor action), good friend #2 would close the hatch (minor action), Belisknar would drive away using the evasive maneuvers action, Friend with FGMP would fire on the G-carrier. Of course there are no rules to allow splitting of actions or delaying of actions.
Question 5a: Will the ability to delay one's move until later in the initiative be returned to v2?
Question 5b: Why can't the people on the same team coordinate their moves -for example, #1 does minor action, #2 does something, #1 jumps back in for their significant action. The goal here was to have somebody open the hatch, FGMP guy jump out, and the hatch be closed again before the FGMP fires, so the AFV doesn't get filled with ugly radiation. I know that's a lot of coordination for 6 seconds, so maybe it shouldn't be possible. What do people think - should two or more teammates be able to coordinate actions like this?
Since there is no real way to delay or coordinate actions, Belisknar slowed down to speed band 2 and commenced evasive maneuvers. FGMP Friend opened hatch (minor action), hopped out (minor action) and aimed (minor action). Buddy #1 closed the hatch (minor action) and buddy #2 aimed his laser rifle and fired on the G-carrier. Too bad he was firing out the wrong arc (He rolled snake-eyes). Cannoneer fired at the G-Carrier, but missed.
It's my turn again, and I turn on the G-Carrier's bitchin computer to try to get a +1 to my flyer rolls. Some fool at the G-Carrier factory installed the "Pilot" expert program when "Flyer" is what is used for a grav vehicle. Likewise, they installed "Gunner" software when a vehicle gunner uses "Heavy Weapons (vehicle)" skill. Stupid G-Carrier technicians...
Typo Alert 1: Default Computer software for G-Carrier should have Flyer/2 and Heavy Weapons/2 instead of Pilot/2 and Gunner/2.
At this point in time, I re-read the rule about how much one can slow down, and thinking about the disadvantages of speed to hitting things, and having the advantage of normally being the GM in the group, I decided that using a stunt action would be sufficient to drop 2 speed bands instead of the normally allowed 1. I decided my roll of 10 was enough. It is good to be the GM. :mrgreen: Belisknar argued that it was only good enough if I described what the stunt was. Can't remember exactly what it was, but it had something to do with nearby tree branches used as brakes, and the rare endangered species living in the trees not enjoying it.
Question 6: Movement rules state
Thru all this, the Henchman's gauss rifle tore off a couple more points of hull from the AFV, and the laser cannon failed to hit the FGMP guy. Rocket launcher wife starts yelling about wanting to shoot too, but knows that firing inside the carrier is not safe, and neither is jumping out at speed band 5 (see question 4 though - maybe it is OK...)
Belisknar's turn was up, and here's where it got ugly. Can't really remember what he did with the AFV other than more evasive maneuvers. The FGMP guy aimed and fired, doing minor damage to the G-carrier's hull.
Question 7: Is this the proper sequence for destructive weapon scaling?
1) Roll Damage Dice. Don't add effect due to destructive trait [our case: 5]
2) Multiply by 10 due to destructive trait [our case: 50]
3) Subtract armor: [our case: 6 (front of G-carrier) --> 50-6 = 44]
4) Divide by 10 due to personal scale firing on vehicle scale target: [our case: 4.4 = 4]
That is, does the armor subtract as above, or at some other step. [1-3-2-4 or 1-2-4-3].
Laser rifle buddy misses again, but cannoneer scores a direct hit on the G-Carrier. Bam!! 20 points of damage - 6 armor leaves the G-carrier with a mere 2 hull. That was actually quite low for a 1d weapon...
Typo Alert: Cannon and Fusion Gun have the "Blast x" Trait. There is no "Blast x" trait listed on p.75. There is the "burst x" trait, whose description seems right. I highly recommend using the "blast" name not the "burst" name, to avoid confusion with the burst component of the "auto x" trait. This means changing all references to explosives that have the "burst x" trait to "blast x".
Assuming that the above typo is correct, and the cannon should have burst 10 (which I again recommend we name blast 10), everything within 10 meters gets the damage.
Question 8:The vehicle chapter states
Question 9: Should the poor gauss gun guy have been splatted like that?
Question 10: Assuming the blast/burst does affect this "visible" passenger, he's struck with 20 points of vehicle-scale damage. Subtract the 6 points of armor for the cover bonus leaves 14 points of vehicle-scale damage, right? So the passenger take 140 points of personal scale damage and is now a fine mist in the G-Carrier... Or did we do that wrong?
I really wanted that sound system, and figured I only needed one good it with the laser cannon to get it. And remember we were all hopped up on goofballs. So we didn't use our superior speed to run away, but instead shot foolishly again. But the gunner just didn't roll well enough, and it was back to Belisknar.
His crew unleashed hell and utterly destroyed the G-Carrier, doing a minor systems crit in the process.
Question 11: The G-Carrier was destroyed, with 4 living crew and one bloody mess aboard. What happens to the passengers when the craft is destroyed? Is there any salvageable parts left behind (weapon, sensors, spare parts, etc) or is it just a smoking crater and vehicle vapor?
There's a few typos to fix and 11 things that could use clarification in the rules.
Please point out if I have missed something somewhere that already clarifies these things.
Observation 1: There was only 1 crit in the whole battle, and that was with the shot that destroyed the vehicle anyway. I know this has been discussed with starships already, but I would have liked to have seen more.
Observation 2: If vehicles are moving and there is much of a speed differential, hitting is hard. That's realistic.... If personnel- scale weapons are used, and the personal scale combat DMs are used, it is near impossible to hit anything 1 or 2 speed bands higher than your speed.
Here's the scenario... Belisknar was driving in his AFV thru a valley. He was accompanied by a friend in battledress and an FGMP-14 and two good buddies packing laser rifles. Belisknar has upgraded his AFV with a vehicular cannon and a really kicking stereo system.
I was cruising around in my G-Carrier, with my wife who carries around a rocket launcher and wears combat armor. We had a couple henchmen sporting gauss rifles in the back. Since I am very law abiding, I complied with my benevolent government's request to swap out my G-Carrier's fusion gun with a laser cannon. The G-carrier had no entertainment system, and everyone was very sad.
Before starting, we decided that:
* We would use the armor and hull values from here: http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=136&t=114112
* All personnel have all 7's for their stats, and Skill 2 in whatever needed to be done.
* We assumed initiative works as in normal combat, but for simplicity we played it as each side has an initiative score rather than each individual crew member.
* We would do this by RAW as much as possible.
The G-carrier's sensors detected the AFV 5km away - Belisknar's sound system was that awesome we heard it that far away, and my gang convinced me they had to have it. Since I'm not the greatest tactician, and we were all hopped up on goofballs, and I didn't remember the rule about how much one could decelerate in a turn, so I sped in at max speed to within 1km. You see, the laser doesn't have the scope trait, so anything above 1km is extreme range. Gunner didn't want to deal with that, you see.
Question 1: Is there any way to get the scope trait on a vehicle weapon in the CRB? Didn't see it. And for some reason a Cr50 rifle scope doesn't seem like it would work on a vehicular weapon.
The laser missed the AFV by a mile, and Belisknar realized that it wasn't a laser light show to go with the awesome music. He realized someone was after his sound system!
Henchman number one shoved his gauss rifle barrel out the firing port and let rip at the AFV.
Question 2: Do passengers shooting from a vehicle use the vehicle speed penalties (-1 per speed band difference) or the personal combat speed penalties (-1 per 10m of relative movement). The former gives the passenger a chance to hit, the latter does not. We decided to go with the former. But clarification would be good.
Despite the massive penalties, henchman #1 managed to hit.
Question 3: Gauss rifle has an AP 5. How does that work with differences in scale? Does it ignore 5 points of armor at any scale? That's what the RAW reads... Armor doesn't scale, damage does.
So, by RAW, so we let it bypass the AFV's armor completely. With the damage scaling, gauss rifle does 2 points of hull damage.
Now that Belisknar is aware of the Allanimal's G-Carrier of Doom [note, and spoiler: It was poorly named...], he says to FGMP dude, "why don't you jump out of the AFV and light that G-Carrier up?" The reply was "Sure Belisknar, but ...."
Question 4: What exactly are the rules for getting in and out of a vehicle during combat?
We decided that it was a minor action to open the hatch or close the hatch, and a minor action to move out of the hatch, and unless there was some grav assist on the battledress (there wasn't), the vehicle had to be going speed 2 or less of the consequences would be dire.
So, Belisknar had this great plan to slow down (minor action? Not sure... is it?), good buddy with laser rifle #1 would open the hatch (minor action), Friend with FGMP would jump out (minor action), good friend #2 would close the hatch (minor action), Belisknar would drive away using the evasive maneuvers action, Friend with FGMP would fire on the G-carrier. Of course there are no rules to allow splitting of actions or delaying of actions.
Question 5a: Will the ability to delay one's move until later in the initiative be returned to v2?
Question 5b: Why can't the people on the same team coordinate their moves -for example, #1 does minor action, #2 does something, #1 jumps back in for their significant action. The goal here was to have somebody open the hatch, FGMP guy jump out, and the hatch be closed again before the FGMP fires, so the AFV doesn't get filled with ugly radiation. I know that's a lot of coordination for 6 seconds, so maybe it shouldn't be possible. What do people think - should two or more teammates be able to coordinate actions like this?
Since there is no real way to delay or coordinate actions, Belisknar slowed down to speed band 2 and commenced evasive maneuvers. FGMP Friend opened hatch (minor action), hopped out (minor action) and aimed (minor action). Buddy #1 closed the hatch (minor action) and buddy #2 aimed his laser rifle and fired on the G-carrier. Too bad he was firing out the wrong arc (He rolled snake-eyes). Cannoneer fired at the G-Carrier, but missed.
It's my turn again, and I turn on the G-Carrier's bitchin computer to try to get a +1 to my flyer rolls. Some fool at the G-Carrier factory installed the "Pilot" expert program when "Flyer" is what is used for a grav vehicle. Likewise, they installed "Gunner" software when a vehicle gunner uses "Heavy Weapons (vehicle)" skill. Stupid G-Carrier technicians...
Typo Alert 1: Default Computer software for G-Carrier should have Flyer/2 and Heavy Weapons/2 instead of Pilot/2 and Gunner/2.
At this point in time, I re-read the rule about how much one can slow down, and thinking about the disadvantages of speed to hitting things, and having the advantage of normally being the GM in the group, I decided that using a stunt action would be sufficient to drop 2 speed bands instead of the normally allowed 1. I decided my roll of 10 was enough. It is good to be the GM. :mrgreen: Belisknar argued that it was only good enough if I described what the stunt was. Can't remember exactly what it was, but it had something to do with nearby tree branches used as brakes, and the rare endangered species living in the trees not enjoying it.
Question 6: Movement rules state
Does this count as an action (minor or significant) or is it something that can be done in conjunction with any other piloting action?
Thru all this, the Henchman's gauss rifle tore off a couple more points of hull from the AFV, and the laser cannon failed to hit the FGMP guy. Rocket launcher wife starts yelling about wanting to shoot too, but knows that firing inside the carrier is not safe, and neither is jumping out at speed band 5 (see question 4 though - maybe it is OK...)
Belisknar's turn was up, and here's where it got ugly. Can't really remember what he did with the AFV other than more evasive maneuvers. The FGMP guy aimed and fired, doing minor damage to the G-carrier's hull.
Question 7: Is this the proper sequence for destructive weapon scaling?
1) Roll Damage Dice. Don't add effect due to destructive trait [our case: 5]
2) Multiply by 10 due to destructive trait [our case: 50]
3) Subtract armor: [our case: 6 (front of G-carrier) --> 50-6 = 44]
4) Divide by 10 due to personal scale firing on vehicle scale target: [our case: 4.4 = 4]
That is, does the armor subtract as above, or at some other step. [1-3-2-4 or 1-2-4-3].
Laser rifle buddy misses again, but cannoneer scores a direct hit on the G-Carrier. Bam!! 20 points of damage - 6 armor leaves the G-carrier with a mere 2 hull. That was actually quite low for a 1d weapon...
Typo Alert: Cannon and Fusion Gun have the "Blast x" Trait. There is no "Blast x" trait listed on p.75. There is the "burst x" trait, whose description seems right. I highly recommend using the "blast" name not the "burst" name, to avoid confusion with the burst component of the "auto x" trait. This means changing all references to explosives that have the "burst x" trait to "blast x".
Assuming that the above typo is correct, and the cannon should have burst 10 (which I again recommend we name blast 10), everything within 10 meters gets the damage.
Question 8:The vehicle chapter states
This means the exploding cannon shell will damage visible vehicle occupants. Is someone firing out of a vehicle considered "visible"? I assumed so, so the henchman shooting the gauss rifle got creamed by the blast/burst of the cannon.
Question 9: Should the poor gauss gun guy have been splatted like that?
Question 10: Assuming the blast/burst does affect this "visible" passenger, he's struck with 20 points of vehicle-scale damage. Subtract the 6 points of armor for the cover bonus leaves 14 points of vehicle-scale damage, right? So the passenger take 140 points of personal scale damage and is now a fine mist in the G-Carrier... Or did we do that wrong?
I really wanted that sound system, and figured I only needed one good it with the laser cannon to get it. And remember we were all hopped up on goofballs. So we didn't use our superior speed to run away, but instead shot foolishly again. But the gunner just didn't roll well enough, and it was back to Belisknar.
His crew unleashed hell and utterly destroyed the G-Carrier, doing a minor systems crit in the process.
Question 11: The G-Carrier was destroyed, with 4 living crew and one bloody mess aboard. What happens to the passengers when the craft is destroyed? Is there any salvageable parts left behind (weapon, sensors, spare parts, etc) or is it just a smoking crater and vehicle vapor?
There's a few typos to fix and 11 things that could use clarification in the rules.
Please point out if I have missed something somewhere that already clarifies these things.
Observation 1: There was only 1 crit in the whole battle, and that was with the shot that destroyed the vehicle anyway. I know this has been discussed with starships already, but I would have liked to have seen more.
Observation 2: If vehicles are moving and there is much of a speed differential, hitting is hard. That's realistic.... If personnel- scale weapons are used, and the personal scale combat DMs are used, it is near impossible to hit anything 1 or 2 speed bands higher than your speed.
