Cap'n Scott
Mongoose
I haven't been on the forum for a while and I don't wish to steal Joe's thunder if this is almost done. But I have been working on various ways to do a Modern (Falklands & after) VAS variant on and off over the past two years and thought I would share my experiences.
Like a lot of people I have a colection of quite nice 1/3000 Navwar/Skytrex minis for US, USSR, UK (and Aussies!). But how to play them? I have bought Harpoon 2 & Harpoon 4 (far too complex), Shipwreck (good but incomplete), downloaded Go In and Sink (not bad but getting dated), Modern GQ (again not bad) and also David Child-Dennis's simple set (playable!). None are quite what I was looking for.
I should add that I am intrested in a modern naval GAME not simulation. In my view any playable miniatures game should do the following:
- be able to be played on a 6x4 table in 3-4 hours max.
- fit a mix of all the key factors (naval = ship, sub and air) on the table
- be balanced via a point system or force selection system
- have a range of possible scenarios
- NOT need an umpire - this rules out Harpoon for me
So I have tried the following:
- updated modern Sea Strike (almost...)
- modified Go In and Sink (couldn't get the sensor bit to work)
- naval "bucket of dice" FOW version (simple, but good)
- variant of Sci-Fi "Full Thrust" (crude but good plotted movement system)
- evolved Shipwreck
- modified VAS (thanks to Dave Manley for helpfull input)
In the end I think a version of VAS is the way to go for three reasons:
- it has all bases covered - ship, sub and air rules work OK in WWII now
- lots of people play it
- the core rules are playable and simple enough to easily modify
So with that waffle about game design out of the way, on to the playtesting. In the variant I have been developing, I found the following happened consistently:
- the key feature was detecting the enemy, usually with helicopters or air
- strike aircraft always operated at LOW to avoid SAMs
- battles were over before they got to gun range, which was just used to finish off cripples
- keeping track of speed and sensor status was a nightmare with either lots of book-keeping or counters everywhere, so I gave up recording passive/active status
- it was too hard to rate all the technology, so it was easier to give ships overall ratings for their tech level
- you had to fudge scales to fit carriers on the table, but otherwise it was back to abstract plotting and something like a boardgame
As DM and Alex said on an earlier thread, if you make the scale too small, task forces dissappear into the size of a counter.
After all of that I settled on the following:
- assume 6 x 4 table and simmilar missions to VAS WWII
- scale = 1 inch = 1nautical mile (about double WWII scale)
- simplify turning as in WWI
- to avoid book-keeping, assume ships can fire 1/4 SSMs and one volley of SAMS in a single turn
- work out rates of fire based on detectors and trackign capability not launcher barrels - ie rate systems, not weapons
- assume strike aircraft & fighters operate at LOW altiture, AEW at High.
- treat helicopters as extension of ship, but with ability to detect & shoot (otherwise way too hard to keep track of helicopters everywhere)
- include command ratings for navies, as these are critical for initiative
So how many people out there have these miniatures and want to play Modern VAS? Joe are you already testing? Is this too late?
PS can anyone with experience in Harpoon answer a question - can CAP fighters fire at incomgin SSMs, and if so at what range? I couldn't find it anywhere in the V2 or V4 rules. I am assuming for Mod VAS that CAP can knock down planes, but not SSMS.
Like a lot of people I have a colection of quite nice 1/3000 Navwar/Skytrex minis for US, USSR, UK (and Aussies!). But how to play them? I have bought Harpoon 2 & Harpoon 4 (far too complex), Shipwreck (good but incomplete), downloaded Go In and Sink (not bad but getting dated), Modern GQ (again not bad) and also David Child-Dennis's simple set (playable!). None are quite what I was looking for.
I should add that I am intrested in a modern naval GAME not simulation. In my view any playable miniatures game should do the following:
- be able to be played on a 6x4 table in 3-4 hours max.
- fit a mix of all the key factors (naval = ship, sub and air) on the table
- be balanced via a point system or force selection system
- have a range of possible scenarios
- NOT need an umpire - this rules out Harpoon for me
So I have tried the following:
- updated modern Sea Strike (almost...)
- modified Go In and Sink (couldn't get the sensor bit to work)
- naval "bucket of dice" FOW version (simple, but good)
- variant of Sci-Fi "Full Thrust" (crude but good plotted movement system)
- evolved Shipwreck
- modified VAS (thanks to Dave Manley for helpfull input)
In the end I think a version of VAS is the way to go for three reasons:
- it has all bases covered - ship, sub and air rules work OK in WWII now
- lots of people play it
- the core rules are playable and simple enough to easily modify
So with that waffle about game design out of the way, on to the playtesting. In the variant I have been developing, I found the following happened consistently:
- the key feature was detecting the enemy, usually with helicopters or air
- strike aircraft always operated at LOW to avoid SAMs
- battles were over before they got to gun range, which was just used to finish off cripples
- keeping track of speed and sensor status was a nightmare with either lots of book-keeping or counters everywhere, so I gave up recording passive/active status
- it was too hard to rate all the technology, so it was easier to give ships overall ratings for their tech level
- you had to fudge scales to fit carriers on the table, but otherwise it was back to abstract plotting and something like a boardgame
As DM and Alex said on an earlier thread, if you make the scale too small, task forces dissappear into the size of a counter.
After all of that I settled on the following:
- assume 6 x 4 table and simmilar missions to VAS WWII
- scale = 1 inch = 1nautical mile (about double WWII scale)
- simplify turning as in WWI
- to avoid book-keeping, assume ships can fire 1/4 SSMs and one volley of SAMS in a single turn
- work out rates of fire based on detectors and trackign capability not launcher barrels - ie rate systems, not weapons
- assume strike aircraft & fighters operate at LOW altiture, AEW at High.
- treat helicopters as extension of ship, but with ability to detect & shoot (otherwise way too hard to keep track of helicopters everywhere)
- include command ratings for navies, as these are critical for initiative
So how many people out there have these miniatures and want to play Modern VAS? Joe are you already testing? Is this too late?
PS can anyone with experience in Harpoon answer a question - can CAP fighters fire at incomgin SSMs, and if so at what range? I couldn't find it anywhere in the V2 or V4 rules. I am assuming for Mod VAS that CAP can knock down planes, but not SSMS.
