Using T20 damage rules.

[Flecha]

I've been thinking of implementing Green Ronin's T20 rules for damage and health in all my D20 games, including Conan, of course. In fact I gamesmaster it tomorrow night and likely will do then.

For those you don't know it, the system for damage and health was first developed by Green Ronin for their Mutants & Masterminds superheroes rpg and then was used for the T20 system, an alternate for D20 fantasy that basically turns D20 into a system that just uses a 20 sided die (T20 means True 20).

In a few words, the damage and health system of T20 don't use HP, and tries to be more realistic in terms of damage, using different wound levels; you feel the pain since the first blow, and after some more hits, tou are down and begin to die. Your resistance depends on class, level and Constitution, so it retains the feel of D&D D20, after all.

I'm willing to change the damage and health rules because my players don't like them in D&D D20, finding higly unrealistic that characters resist a lot of damage withouth feeling it at all until they reach 0 HP and automatically fall down. Much more, they reason, in the more real game of Conan. And, you know, they're essentially right. So as a good master I must always try to please my players to enhance their playing experience.

The rules are very modular, so I think there's not much problem changing just the damage and health rules, and playing with the rest of the D20 ones. The only problem is with the weapons damage, which is measured in a completely different way. But that's solved using too the weapon table of T20.

The thing is, someone has tried this experiment before? I'm not talking of using the T20 system entirelly, but just exporting the damage and health rules only to other systems. I understand that in D&D D20 it would require more work, rewriting every health-caring magic (potions, spells...), but nothing that can be done. Of course, I will inform of my experiences, too...

 

[Valaryc]

of course the wound system is not realistic....if it would be realistic after the first or second hit the fight would be over that would not be very "heroic" i think.... and after 11th level the hit points are much less than in D&D. so combat is still "deadly" (think about the massive damage rule)

i don't know the T20 damage system but i think i guess its function from some other RPGs with a similiar system.

i use the damage system from the D20 StarWars RPG (that is mentioned as a optional rule in the D&D 3.5 i think):

there are no hit points anymore. every character has vitality points (former "hit points") and WOUND points (= his Con attribut). normal hits draw vitality points. after they are "zeroed" the character is fatigued. he has -2 on Str and Dex (attribute...so he looses 1 bonus and his initiative, ability to attack and defend decreases by 1). he can't "run" anymore too. that would be what you said "feel the pain".

criticals don't have a multiplier anymore. they hit directly the wound points (and fatigue the character even if he have vitality points). with 0 wounds he is unconscious...and will loose 1 wound point per round (until stabilized). reaching -10 he is dead. so you can kill a person with a good hit (critical) and you have some effects from wounding. wounds heal 1 per day or 2 per day with intensive care.

that would be a little more realistic but still heroic enough....and you don't have to work the whole system over

 

[Trodax]

I have leafed through True20, but haven't played it. It seems like a pretty cool game, and you can probably import the damage system without too much trouble if thats what you and your players want. Myself, I like hit points and think they are great for the sword & sorcery feel. Also, my players don't get a say in the matter.

There are some things to consider though.

The damage system seems more deadly than standard d20. Since you make a Toughness save to avoid being damaged, there is always a chance of rolling a 1 and getting hurt bad. However, this deadliness is sort of balanced because you have "Conviction points" which you may use to reroll important stuff like this. Perhaps the Conan Fate points could be tweaked to allow something like this?

Defense is higher in True20 than in Conan. In True20 you have a "Combat score" which is used both for attacking and defending, so two equal opponents will generally hit each other 50% of the time. Also, you don't get any iterative attacks as in normal d20.
In Conan, BAB has a faster progression than Dodge/Parry, so hitting successfully will get more common as you level up (this is balanced because you also get more hit points). This means that you might get an even more deadly game if you combine the True20 damage system with the Conan attack system (BAB against Dodge/Parry).

Armour in True20 gives you a bonus to your Toughness save (while the attackers strength and weapon damage adds to the DC of this save). I guess this means you will have to drop the way Conan distinguishes between different ways of bypassing armour (AP and Finesse). You could of course keep the choice of basing your fighting style on Strength or Dexterity, but the interaction with armour seems tricky to keep. Just something to think about, perhaps it will affect the balance of Feats or Class abilities (or it might be fine, I dunno).

Your resistance depends on class, level and Constitution, so it retains the feel of D&D D20, after all.

This was true in Blue Rose that first used the True20 rules (and perhaps in Mutants & Masterminds to, I don't know that game). In the game that is now actually named True20, however, the Toughness save is just d20+Con bonus+Armour bonus (so it is not based on class and level). Which version are you using?

Good luck, and tell us how it goes!

(BTW, I think T20 is shorthand for some other game, and not True20. Traveller T20 or something, can't remember.)

 

[DourDeadlyPuritan]

I like the M&M rules of damage saving throws and weapons doing damage in saving throw difficulty modifiers for the superhero genre but I'm not sure about T20's take.

When it comes to WP/VP it's all a matter of semantics. HPs basically ARE Vitality Points and Wound Points are covered with the low massive damage save rule. Unless you're talking about the character's last few Hit Points, HPs don't represent literal wounds. They have as much to do with the character's luck, vitality and near-misses as VPs do.

As for actual wound levels, what Valaryc said. Conan's universe is "grim and gritty" but also heroic, and being that anal about character damage takes the fun out of it for me. Conan's world ISN'T supposed to be realistic and I think the modified HP system Mongoose uses for it represents it just fine.

 

[GrimJesta]

When I run my Kingdoms of Kalamar game, I usually use the Grim n' Gritty Combat Rules, since I like combat to be brutal, painful, and realistic. With Conan I actually like the standard HP system (which blows my friends minds when I say that, since I usually hate the d20 hit point rules), but Conan needs the ability to shrug off an arrow or three. Think about how often Conan takes damage and keeps fighting... totally unrealistic, but totally epic. The Massive Damage rule in Conan is what makes Conan a deadly(ier) game though, and with characters that seem to be able to dish out more damage (the stats of a 16th level character are loco!), they make D&D characters look weak by comparison.

That being said, I'd love to hear about how well the T20 (incidentally, "T20" used to mean Traveller d20, but the True20 system kicked it's face in and stole its name and lunch money) works with Conan. Let us know if it impacts the heroic nature of Conan in either direction, and if it slowed combat down or sped it up, or whatever. I have alot of gripes about the d20 system, especially the D&D version and the Star Wars version, but one of the things I love about it is how "tool box" it is. I mean look at what Mongoose had done? In some aspects it doesn't even remotely resemble the old D&D 3.x system.

-=Grim=-

 

[Taharqa]

When I run my Kingdoms of Kalamar game, I usually use the Grim n' Gritty Combat Rules, since I like combat to be brutal, painful, and realistic. With Conan I actually like the standard HP system (which blows my friends minds when I say that, since I usually hate the d20 hit point rules), but Conan needs the ability to shrug off an arrow or three. Think about how often Conan takes damage and keeps fighting... totally unrealistic, but totally epic.

I don't recall Conan taking many hits in the stories - He usually avoids them with his pantherish quickness or because of his armor. Keep in mind that he went down from a single shot to the head in Hour of the Dragon (in Argos) and that was a 20th level Conan!

I like the idea of T20's damage system very much, but I have the same concerns that Trodax expressed above. I think you would have to retweak other parts of the system to make it balance (particularly you would need to make people harder to hit), so I am happy with the Massive Damage Save for my grit for now.

 

[Flecha]

I've posted the same query in other forums and was informed that the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana has alternate damage rules that form the base of the M&M, then Blue Rose and T20 rules for damage. I own the book, yet never read it; I'll check some day, thoguh.

My idea is not reduce the resilience of characters, just make then suffer the effects of blows. In T20, you can have more or less resilient characters, so you can mimic Conan. On the other hand, I hadn't thought of how it would affect armor. Thanks, Trodax! Ditto for the hint on conviction/fate rules. It's great!

Also, Valaryc, good idea using the Star Wars (or Modern D20) system; I knew it, but never thought of using it. It's perhaps for weaker (civilized, and hence, "modern" :lol: ) characters than Conan's.

I see I'll have more work to do before using my idea before tomorrow. Soon, I hope...

 

[Valaryc]

Also, Valaryc, good idea using the Star Wars (or Modern D20) system; I knew it, but never thought of using it. It's perhaps for weaker (civilized, and hence, "modern" :lol: ) characters than Conan's.

i use it with every D20 RPG i play and have good experiences with it. most of my group ( i'm the gm) are "fighter classes" and they like that system too. it makes it a lot deadlier and a little more "realistic" (if you cann use that word in a fantasy roleplaying game)...i use the massive damage rule nonetheless.

 

[quigs]

Actually, I like the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana rules and I think they would work well with Conan. I might try it and post how it goes.