Upgrading ship components

[snrdg121408]

Evening all,

One of the items I have asked about in all most all of the Traveller design systems is what components can be updated or upgraded on an existing hull.

Navies generally continue to upgrade systems as technology changes. One example are the upgrades and updates made by the U. S. Navy to the Iowa-class battleships. If I recall correctly all of the 5-inch gun mounts and the 20mm AA guns removed and replaced with Tomahawk and Harpoon missile launchers. I think that something like four Phalanx close-in weapons rounded out the secondary armament. Electronic systems were upgraded. The propulsion systems and power plant also had improvements made.

Civilian ships, at least from what I've heard from the mechant marine types, upgrade mainly electonics like radar, GPS, and communication systems. At some point they even upgrade the lifeboats and other safety equipment.


What components could be upgraded or updated besides weapons on say the Core Rulebook Scout, Type S, which I think is a TL 11 design based on the TL chart on page 4?

In my opinion the power plant, computer, and electronics could be upgraded. From my quick glance at HG there are probably additional items that can be upgraded after a hull has left the yard and adventured for awhile.

So what components can be upgraded/updated on a hull after leaving the construction yard?

 

[Infojunky]

So what components can be upgraded/updated on a hull after leaving the construction yard?

Any and all, it really depends on how much money you want to spend.

It really depend on what kind of game you are playing and what you want to allow.

 

[lurker]

Just some thoughts on this to fuel discussion.

During the course of play, unless a campaign stretches across a lengthy period of time, I don't see how/why you would be upgrading what is written (this is mostly in regards to Military vessels or civilian vessels operating withing the same area they were built). Deciding you want to start out at a different point than the rules indicate is certainly possible. Deciding to swap out a certain item for a different one that is also available is certainly possible (like your computer for a better one).

If you travel around and come upon a shipyard at a very high tech system, they could have some piece of equipment you may want as a upgrade. Remember, this advanced technology may(should?) now need to be brought back to this same shipyard for repairs and maintenance since it is non-standard and not supported by the shipyards elsewhere who have never seen anything like it before. Also your on-board tech may need to attend a training course in order to do routine maintenance and repair (or incur penalties for working on something they were never trained on). Maybe the penalty is reduced if they come from or were trained on a high tech world?

Using the OP example - the navy doesn't swap out weapons without spending time (usually many months) training personnel how to repair, maintain, and operate them and making sure there are manufacturers making spare parts and that they are available in the supply system.

If your campaign does span a long period of time, there certainly would be some advances which would work there way onto ships. It is totally up to the GM to decide what and when. (are you asking for suggestions?) Of course, your enemies are also coming up with new things too!

 

[snrdg121408]

Howdy Infojunky,

Thank you for the reply and you are a sophont after my own heart or at least design mind set. I've had some suggest that the jump drive cannot be upgraded but the drive can be down graded or totally removed.

So what components can be upgraded/updated on a hull after leaving the construction yard?

Any and all, it really depends on how much money you want to spend.

It really depend on what kind of game you are playing and what you want to allow.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello lurker,

Thanks for your thoughts on my question about updating or upgrading a the components of a vessel after being launched.

In my experience with Traveller most of the ships that a party of Traveller adventures get have been out of the shipyard for a few decades. Over that period of time, even if the hull remains in the same subsector, all sorts of things have happened. In one campaign set in the Solomani Rim the TL10 Beowulf-Class 200-ton Free Trader I was the Engineer on had the fuel processers destroyed during an attack by "pirates" :wink: . The ship put in for repairs on a TL 11 world that did not have TL 10 replacements, the GM was in a very good mood, and allowed the purchase of TL 11 processors. The result was freeing up more space and a quicker refuelling time.

From my Navy experience upgrades were rarely done at the shipyard that originally built the hull. The upgrades to the Iowa-class battleships were done at the nearest shipyard.

To a degree you are correct that the Navy does take time to study the issues on what is needed prior to making upgrades to equipment. Usually, the upgraded system has already had some time in the fleet with some level of trained personnel. In the ideal world everything we need to maintain the equipment is available, unfortunately in the real world the parts usually run out when you really need them. :lol:

In another Traveller campaign three of the items I upgraded on a TL 10 Suliemen-class Scout were the computer, weapons, and fuel processors. Which proved to have been a good thing, since the next system I jumped to I was engaged by a Vargr Corsair. Had I not done the upgrades my poor little scout would have been toast.

 

[Beastttt]

actually only 4 of the 10 5"/38 mounts were removed along with all 3"(76mm),40mm and 20mm(anti-air) cannons
she kept her mechanical fire control computer(WW2 vintage)as it was proof vs any EMP attack as a backup
crew requirements went down by 1/3 mostly because of the AA being removed

Evening all,

One of the items I have asked about in all most all of the Traveller design systems is what components can be updated or upgraded on an existing hull.

Navies generally continue to upgrade systems as technology changes. One example are the upgrades and updates made by the U. S. Navy to the Iowa-class battleships. If I recall correctly all of the 5-inch gun mounts and the 20mm AA guns removed and replaced with Tomahawk and Harpoon missile launchers. I think that something like four Phalanx close-in weapons rounded out the secondary armament. Electronic systems were upgraded. The propulsion systems and power plant also had improvements made.

Civilian ships, at least from what I've heard from the mechant marine types, upgrade mainly electonics like radar, GPS, and communication systems. At some point they even upgrade the lifeboats and other safety equipment.


What components could be upgraded or updated besides weapons on say the Core Rulebook Scout, Type S, which I think is a TL 11 design based on the TL chart on page 4?

In my opinion the power plant, computer, and electronics could be upgraded. From my quick glance at HG there are probably additional items that can be upgraded after a hull has left the yard and adventured for awhile.

So what components can be upgraded/updated on a hull after leaving the construction yard?

 

[snrdg121408]

Evening Beastttt,

Well, at least I got the 20mm AA systems right . Not bad for a submarine sailor working from memory. Of course if I had not been lazy I might have looked up the details. Then again my luck with search criteria recently has been pretty bad. Again thanks for the information and the reply.

actually only 4 of the 10 5"/38 mounts were removed along with all 3"(76mm),40mm and 20mm(anti-air) cannons
she kept her mechanical fire control computer(WW2 vintage)as it was proof vs any EMP attack as a backup
crew requirements went down by 1/3 mostly because of the AA being removed

Evening all,

One of the items I have asked about in all most all of the Traveller design systems is what components can be updated or upgraded on an existing hull.

Navies generally continue to upgrade systems as technology changes. One example are the upgrades and updates made by the U. S. Navy to the Iowa-class battleships. If I recall correctly all of the 5-inch gun mounts and the 20mm AA guns removed and replaced with Tomahawk and Harpoon missile launchers. I think that something like four Phalanx close-in weapons rounded out the secondary armament. Electronic systems were upgraded. The propulsion systems and power plant also had improvements made.

Civilian ships, at least from what I've heard from the mechant marine types, upgrade mainly electonics like radar, GPS, and communication systems. At some point they even upgrade the lifeboats and other safety equipment.


What components could be upgraded or updated besides weapons on say the Core Rulebook Scout, Type S, which I think is a TL 11 design based on the TL chart on page 4?

In my opinion the power plant, computer, and electronics could be upgraded. From my quick glance at HG there are probably additional items that can be upgraded after a hull has left the yard and adventured for awhile.

So what components can be upgraded/updated on a hull after leaving the construction yard?

 

[Patron Zero]

Mind I interpret the thread as more referring to larger-performance related systems but what about less 'invasive' refits concerning computers or other electronics packages ?

Simply said, upgrading a set of navigational sensors or ship's CPU would add a real advantage over stock components without as much time in a drydock than say a drive-related labors.

Likely the next less 'disruptive' overhaul would be power plant or life support related unless either or both were complete system-network wide renovations. Rewiring jobs do get time consuming if a total restoration-replacement effort needs to be made without any 'fancy' components such as armored cables, secondary relay-reroutes or zone based local generators.

 

[kristof65]

If you read any of the material on any of the warships detailed in CT, like the AZH or the Kinunir, there are lots of mentions of refits. So it's not any more uncommon in Traveller than in real life.

The control systems I work with and do tech support for are constantly being upgraded, how much work an upgrade requires depends on a lot of factors - one of the biggest being the difference in age between the old and new systems.

Basically, anything can be upgraded/modified, it's simply a matter of expense and desire. As a GM, if the PCs wanted to upgrade their starship, I would probably use the following system as a base, and then work out the rest on a case by case basis:

I would allow anything to be modified, but the base cost of internal components like drives would be full price of the new component plus 10+1d6 % per tech level of difference between the old component and the new one. So putting a TL 15 J-drive into a ship that currently had a TL12 one would cost 30 to 48% more than if you were buying the same drive for a new ship. The old drive would be a "core charge" for the work performed, too - I wouldn't let the PCs sell it off to offset the cost of the replacement - the shipyard doing the work would get to do that. I would, however, let that cost differential be modified by the appropriate skill and task checks.

Changing the hull itself of a ship would be allowed, but I'd have to work the pricing and details out on a case by case basis.

In addition to that, I'd make a series of task rolls for the shipyard doing the work, any failed roll would result in the system having "quirks" the PCs would have to deal with. All of these quirks would be based upon various challenges and hurdles I've seen in real life.

Some (but certainly not all) of the difficulties involved in upgrading systems are as follows:

- Wiring. Wire rots, breaks causing it's own problems, and different communications and electrical signals will require different types of wire to be used. Connection points won't always be at the same spot - heck, nothing is more frustrating than having to pull new wiring not because the wire itself is bad or wrong, but because it's 10cm too short. A wire that handled an old analog control voltage just fine despite a series of micro-breaks/cracks may cause all sorts of interference for a new digital control signal.

- Physical layout. Differences in size, shape and fastening/connection points of different equipment can often mean custom brackets, metal work, etc. These differences become more pronounced the farther apart the generations of equipment is, and the manufacturers. Speaking of manufacturers, an LSP TL 15 J-drive is likely to be more compatible with the mounting brackets of an LSP TL 12 drive than a Sternmetal TL12 drive is.

- incompatibilities with other equipment driving up costs. Often times doing an upgrade on one piece of equipment reveals an incompatibility (often previously unseen/unknown) with other connected pieces of equipment. This can result in other pieces of equipment having to be replaced as well, or reduced performance. Say you upgrade a J1 TL12 ship to a TL15 J3 (if it's possible, not looking at the numbers right now). You could find out that the older TL13 control system won't take the new J3 software, and as a result, the ship will be limited to J2 until such time as the computer is replaced.

- loss of space due to differences in layout/size. This is common among mechanics who drop large block engines into smaller cars - the firewall between the engine compartment and the passenger section often has to be moved/cut into. Nothing like having a wierd protruding bump inside a stateroom because the bulkhead had to be modifed to allow the piping to the new power plant to connect to the right point.

- maintenance becomes harder/longer/more expensive because you can't physically access the maintanence access panel that's crammed up against the wall.

- bugs. New software/equipment often has bugs that don't show up until the stuff's been in the field awhile. Equipment that's been sitting in a warehouse may have older revison boards/parts/software.

- work in period. Anything newly assembled goes through a break in period where all sorts of fun things can happen. No manufacturing plant/shipyard is 100% accurate. Some of these problems require technical intervention - like replacing a cracked valve, some work themselves out, like the self tuning fuel injectors of modern automobiles.

 

[omegar]

So players have had fun on the Spinward main, However they have decided to open up there options and upgrade to J2 engine.

This will Require extra tonnage:
+22 tons of Fuel
+3 tons of power plant
+5 tons of Jump drive.

This oddly enough easy enough to carry out on the ships layout, there are several places to add in new bulkheads, and move old bulheads. I have decided how much to charge them, however I have no idea how long this job would take.

The old J-engine & Power plant need to be removed: ?? Days
Bulk heads moved: ?? Days
New J-engine & Power plant need to be installed:?? Days
New Software to be installed: ?? Days
Safety Testing: ?? Days

So while some of this could be done overlapping, while one Crew are taking out the old engine, another is working on Bulkheads.

Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions on how long it might take?

 

[Duroon]

I have had some players that were wanting to tweak the design of every ship they came across. Here's what I went with.

For every 5Mcr of retrofitting it takes one week (this is the rule in High Guard for new construction times)

To determine the cost of empty/fuel space just take the tonnage of the ship and divide it by the hull cost. This will give you a per ton cost for if they want to make fuel space into cargo space or vice versa.

 

[omegar]

Thats pretty good.

thanks for the input.

Thoughts though. Is that Difference or total

i.e they have an engine that cost X Mcrs and are replacing it with an engine that cost Y Mcr. so is the number of weeks

(x-y)/5 weeks or (x+y)/5 weeks. hmmmm i can see both!

 

[Duroon]

To simplify it I generally just use the total cost of the retrofit. If I wanted to punish them for having to mess with every ship (and the thought has crossed my mind) I would do both, time for taking out the old equipment based on what it is worth and the time to install the new. I suppose that would guarantee that they would stop making changes to ships.

 

[omegar]

indeed. I think it i will add on a number of weeks equal to the cost of the installation, and a shorter number of weeks for removing things. It takes effort to remove an engine so it can be used again!