Two-Weapon Strike Feat & AP (MODERATORS CHECK THIS topic

[LucaCherstich]

Note for the Moderator: Do not know whether I can paste here a bit of a published book, if not, please delete this post.
It is just that, without this description at hand, I do not know how to discuss the topic.

I have a question regarding this feat from Hyboria's Fiercest, Page 72.
Me & others have different opinions regarding this feat.
So I want to know your interpretation (of if there is any "official" interpretation).


Two-Weapon Strike
(General)

Paired weapons make one of the most versatile combat
combinations imaginable and yours are more versatile still.
You have learned to swing both weapons at precisely the same
target area on your foe and in the same instant, opening up
great gaping wounds that appear more like they were made
with a greatsword than a pair of smaller blades.

Prerequisites: Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, base
attack bonus +3 or higher

Benefits: When armed with slashing weapons in both hands,
you can make a special attack once per round using both
weapons. You combine your best primary hand attack with
your best off hand attack, making a single attack roll based
on your best primary hand attack bonus (as modifi ed as usual
for Two-Weapon fi ghting). This attack roll determines the
results of both attacks. Determine threats and critical hits
individually for each weapon, but otherwise as usual. If both
attacks hit, total up the damage done and apply it as though
it were a single attack for all purposes, including punching
through damage reduction and causing death by
massive damage.

2 QUESTIONS:

a)
I understand that "You combine your best primary hand attack with
your best off hand attack", so, if you have other attacks you can do them.
Am I wrong?

b)
What about AP?
Do you combine the two AP or do you use the AP of the first attack?

 

[Clovenhoof]

I think that feat, while the idea behind it is excellent, isn't quite thought through. Good point about the armour piercing. You can't derive it from the feat description, because the question simply isn't covered. So you can only make up your own rule.

Since the whole _purpose_ of the feat is to overcome DR, you might rule:
If different weapons are used, it suffices if one of them pierces the armour. You strike them at precisely the same target area, so the second weapon goes into the gap torn by the first weapon.

OR you could say: add up both weapons' AP scores plus your Str modifier to determine if you pierce the armour.

Personally, I think the feat is poorly written not only because of the AP question, but also because it has nonsynergistic prerequisites; i.e. you need Power Attack as prereq despite the fact you can't use PA with Light Weapons, and when you Dual-Wield typically at least one weapon is Light.
Moreover, I never agreed with the idea that TWFers need to spend _another_ feat to be able to get a bit closer to what 2HFers can do without any feat.

Hence, in our game, Two Weapon Strike has always been a combat maneuver, not a feat, available to anyone with the TWC ability and BAB +3.
No Power Attack required.

BTW, afaik all the game rules (which includes feats) are Open Content and can thus be posted with impunity.

P.S.: yes, the remaining attacks can be used normally. In addition, you might rule that this ability can be used multiple times per round if you have Improved TWF, then of course with cumulative -5 penalties for each iterative attack.

 

[Vambelte]

A) Yes, I belive you can make the rest of your attacks, if you have any.

B) I would rule that the AP of the main hand is used.

In my game, I haven't adopted this feat. But I have created some others, in order to balance dual wielder whit other styles.

 

[treeplanter]

I personnaly kept the feat, but you stack the AP, so you actually get more AP than a 2-hand.

Off-hand weapon expert is actually pretty huge for 2 weapon figther

 

[Sutek]

The AP part is the easiest to answer. It says "punching
through damage reduction" and that's what AP does, so I don't see where the confusion lies. You add AP and all Damage dice together.

I read the feat to say that you take your best off hand bonus and your best primary gand attack bonus and add them together as if it were one, single bonus and then you make one, single attack roll.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I read the feat to say that you take your best off hand bonus and your best primary gand attack bonus and add them together as if it were one, single bonus and then you make one, single attack roll.

No, that's certainly not right. That would mean that a Level 4 fighter with Str 18 would have a +16 Attack bonus, at a level where most opponents have a Defense <18, so you'd always only miss on a 1.
Instead, you take your _regular_ Attack bonus -- for most people it's going to be the same for Primary and Off-hand anyway -- and make your roll with that. In this case, +8, if the Off-hand weapon is Light. Or +4 if it's One-Handed.
If the character has Weapon Focus for both weapons, he gets the +1. If he only has the WF for one of the weapons, you might still allow it.

As for AP, adding both together also seems too powerful to me. The same fighter as above would get, with 1 Broadsword and 1 Shortsword, a total AP of 12. But I guess it would be fine if you only add in the Strength bonus once. So in this case 3 + 1 + 4 = 8, that's not bad either.

In my games, where TWS is a maneuver and not a feat, we require both attack rolls to be made separately at their respective bonus, but if both attacks hit, the off-hand damage is not reduced by armour.

 

[treeplanter]

if you got weapon focus with one of weapon (primary) and let's take your 4th level soldier with 18 str, so he have +9 and +8 to hit respectively

I roll my dice to attack and I roll a 10.

against a 18 defense foes, both primary and off-hand hit, so you combine.
Against a 19, only primary hit.
agains a 20, both will miss.

that is how the feat read. There's not much confusing here....

 

[Clovenhoof]

It's quite a good solution, I think, but actually not how the feat reads, because

making a single attack roll based on your best primary hand attack bonus (as modifi ed as usual for Two-Weapon fi ghting).

But that's just for the record. Your interpretation isn't bad either.

 

[treeplanter]

yeah you're quite right

I guess I got stuck on the if both attack hit part.