Tunneling questions
- Thread starter Galatea
- Start date
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
1) Correct unfortunately
2) You could swarm the tankers, but the swarm isn't a unit, so it couldn't become a single marker as far as we interpret the rules (the models in a swarm still stay as part of the original unit for VPs etc..). THe swarm rule is meant to represent the 'hive mind' one model units like the tanker therefore don't need it.
Also, even if you could take a swarm underground, swarms are formed during the game, so he'd see the tankers tunnel down anyway. So no chance of a surprise.
2) You could swarm the tankers, but the swarm isn't a unit, so it couldn't become a single marker as far as we interpret the rules (the models in a swarm still stay as part of the original unit for VPs etc..). THe swarm rule is meant to represent the 'hive mind' one model units like the tanker therefore don't need it.
Also, even if you could take a swarm underground, swarms are formed during the game, so he'd see the tankers tunnel down anyway. So no chance of a surprise.
What about having the Tankers start with their own markers, link up while underground, and then move both markers together as a swarm - could that work?
If so, could the same tactic be applied to other Arachnid units, such as two units of Warriors linking up underground and moving together?
If so, could the same tactic be applied to other Arachnid units, such as two units of Warriors linking up underground and moving together?
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
no as it's individual models that swarm, so you can't do it underground, there is no 'command radius' underground so swarms are irrelevant.
The game mechanics are there to keep the game balanced, look at it this way, swarming tankers is just a misinterpretation of the rules to gain free tunneling. Just buy another marker
The game mechanics are there to keep the game balanced, look at it this way, swarming tankers is just a misinterpretation of the rules to gain free tunneling. Just buy another marker
'Models in a swarm are considered to be a single unit, ignoring normal command range rules, for the duration of the action. There is nothing to prevent a a swarm operating as one body in the next action or even for the entire game if the arachnid player wishes so but it's constituent models are still considered to be part of their starting unit'.
-> Models in a swarm operate as one single unit. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to tunnel as one unit.
-> You just need to know which model was from which unit when counting mission points. For all game purposes they count as ONE single unit. So also for tunneling.
That's what I see in the rules.
-> Models in a swarm operate as one single unit. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to tunnel as one unit.
-> You just need to know which model was from which unit when counting mission points. For all game purposes they count as ONE single unit. So also for tunneling.
That's what I see in the rules.
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
yes, but there's absolutely no way to form a swarm underground as there is no command radius in effect when tunneling (you can't combine two markers) and swarms form during the game so there's no way you could surprise someone with two tankers in a tunneling swarm.. you'd have to form the swarm and tunnel down in view of the other player. So how do you surprise him?
Yes that's allright, I can't have swarms at the beginning of the game, that's clear now.
But I can't see a reason why I wouldn't be able to swarm 2 tunnel markers of the same species. Swarms ignore Command radius and if they meet each other they are effectively in range of each other - you can also do close combat under ground alltough there is no point blank range (what normally would render CC impossible).
But I can't see a reason why I wouldn't be able to swarm 2 tunnel markers of the same species. Swarms ignore Command radius and if they meet each other they are effectively in range of each other - you can also do close combat under ground alltough there is no point blank range (what normally would render CC impossible).
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
but you've lost that element of surprise and that's what tunneling is all about.
One option though.
Tunnel a 'tanker swarm' down on top of another marker (cheap warriors), then move one off next turn, he won't be sure which has moved (as long as you've got them clearly marked on the back).
Then again, you could just tunnel the two tankers separately if you've got the spare marker.
One option though.
Tunnel a 'tanker swarm' down on top of another marker (cheap warriors), then move one off next turn, he won't be sure which has moved (as long as you've got them clearly marked on the back).
Then again, you could just tunnel the two tankers separately if you've got the spare marker.
Another question:
A Burrower is 'independent':
If I split it from the squad he is leading I could:
- ready and tunnel up
- the squad - no matter where it moves - immediately touches the tunnel entrance and can emerge (it actually IS under the tunnel entrance)
- the squad can take his second action and charge any enemy in range
Is this working? As far as I understood the rules it does. Then the Burrower would be worth it's 125p.
Especially when you pack something like 5 Guard Bugs or 2 Mantis at his back.
A Burrower is 'independent':
If I split it from the squad he is leading I could:
- ready and tunnel up
- the squad - no matter where it moves - immediately touches the tunnel entrance and can emerge (it actually IS under the tunnel entrance)
- the squad can take his second action and charge any enemy in range
Is this working? As far as I understood the rules it does. Then the Burrower would be worth it's 125p.
Especially when you pack something like 5 Guard Bugs or 2 Mantis at his back.
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
you can't really split him from the unit underground, but the marker could ready and tunnel up in one turn,next turn the warriors etc... could tunnel up and leave him behind underground. just bring up all of the non tunnelers first, then nominate a new leader as soon as they surface. He's independent so he doesn't have to join them once they surface. That would work.
So it would be.... ready (one action). Tunnel up (second action) as a marker.
Next turn: the warriors etc... surface and leave the burrower underground. He stays as a tunneling marker.
The best accompanying unit for him is hoppers, you can do so much damage.
So it would be.... ready (one action). Tunnel up (second action) as a marker.
Next turn: the warriors etc... surface and leave the burrower underground. He stays as a tunneling marker.
The best accompanying unit for him is hoppers, you can do so much damage.
dyssnowman
Mongoose
I had asked Alex about swarming tunnel markers along time ago (my though had only been linking up units of warriors underground, not tankers) and he said that you can swarm underground as long as the total number of models in the swarm did not exceed 15, and that they opposite could be done as well. I think that he said that you could start units swarmed as well, but I am not positive on that.
As for the burrower, check the update in S&P 37. It now moves faster along existing tunnels. I believe that it is 6", but check in the article to make sure.
As for the burrower, check the update in S&P 37. It now moves faster along existing tunnels. I believe that it is 6", but check in the article to make sure.
JoseDominguez said:
Well, my though was not about leaving the Burrower under ground.
In fact I wanted the Burrower leave the group represented by the marker (he is independent so he can do an action without the rest of the group at any time) and tunnel up.
So the Burrower would do ready and then tunnel up.
After he has done this the remaining Bugs (I'm thinking of something like Guard Bugs here) use a move action, tunnel up (as they immediately touch the marker) and get to suface. Then they would be free to charge.
So the Squads actions would be move (tunnel up) and any other action (prefereably charge).
This would make the Burrower worth it's points even when attached to an ordinary Warrior Squad.
dyssnowman
Mongoose
Just to double check, I ran the swarming thing by Matt; here is my email and the response.
"Hey Matt,
>
> Is it possible to start units swarmed together underground? For example, two units of five warriors each or two tankers? I had asked Alex about swarming units underground during the game a while back and he had told me that you could form and break up swarms underground as long as you have purchased the tunnel markers for them. I just can't remember if he said that you could start them swarmed underground. Any help would be appreciated!
>
> Pete "Snowman" Lowther
> Mongoose Infantry Demonstrator
> Starship_Troopers_Game yahoo group moderator
> Las Vegas, NV
Hi there,
I don't see any reason why not. . .
Matthew Sprange
Mongoose Publishing"
So in a nutshell, you can do the two tankers swarming at the beginning of the game making for a really nasty surprise when they reach the surface.
"Hey Matt,
>
> Is it possible to start units swarmed together underground? For example, two units of five warriors each or two tankers? I had asked Alex about swarming units underground during the game a while back and he had told me that you could form and break up swarms underground as long as you have purchased the tunnel markers for them. I just can't remember if he said that you could start them swarmed underground. Any help would be appreciated!
>
> Pete "Snowman" Lowther
> Mongoose Infantry Demonstrator
> Starship_Troopers_Game yahoo group moderator
> Las Vegas, NV
Hi there,
I don't see any reason why not. . .
Matthew Sprange
Mongoose Publishing"
So in a nutshell, you can do the two tankers swarming at the beginning of the game making for a really nasty surprise when they reach the surface.
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
if you can swarm units at the start of them game, then that just changed the game balance i.e. three tankers previously cost an extra 150 points to get underground at the start of the game. Now it's 50.
This really does effect things a lot: it makes starting an entire army underground cost effective, even the plasmas, just buy one burrower and attach it to a plasma swarm.
Think about it, this massively reduces the cost of tunneling assets. It's also a reinterpretation of the swarm rule as it's written (something you do with an action, not before the game).
This really does effect things a lot: it makes starting an entire army underground cost effective, even the plasmas, just buy one burrower and attach it to a plasma swarm.
Think about it, this massively reduces the cost of tunneling assets. It's also a reinterpretation of the swarm rule as it's written (something you do with an action, not before the game).
You forget something.
It may reduce the cost of tunneling units, yes - but it also limits their ability to move.
2 Tankers in one marker may be an ugly surprise when they burry out in the middle of the enemies forces, but when your opponent evades this tunneling marker you're in big trouble.
It's just one marker you need to evade, not two. That's far more easy and in worst case you have a 550p unit underground unable to do get anything in combat distance.
You can't controll the battlefield with one tanker swarm underground - with two burrowing tankers you can.
They have EACH about 9" range when they burrow out, that's enough to cover half the table, when you move them properly.
So it fairly balances out.
It may reduce the cost of tunneling units, yes - but it also limits their ability to move.
2 Tankers in one marker may be an ugly surprise when they burry out in the middle of the enemies forces, but when your opponent evades this tunneling marker you're in big trouble.
It's just one marker you need to evade, not two. That's far more easy and in worst case you have a 550p unit underground unable to do get anything in combat distance.
You can't controll the battlefield with one tanker swarm underground - with two burrowing tankers you can.
They have EACH about 9" range when they burrow out, that's enough to cover half the table, when you move them properly.
So it fairly balances out.
dyssnowman
Mongoose
Very true Galatea. While it can give the game an interesting twist, it doesn't create a great imbalance in my opinion.
JoseDominguez said:
Not so - the way Snowman posed the question to Matt, you could form and break up swarms underground "as long as you have purchased the tunnel markers for them". The way I read that, a 3-tanker swarm could move under one marker - for the surprise value - but you still have to buy a marker for each tanker in case they decide to go their separate ways at some point. So point-wise it shouldn't affect the balance of the game.
dyssnowman
Mongoose
I have to disagree about having to purchase one marker for each tanker.
For one thing, you don't buy a marker for a specific unit but rather for the tactical advantage of having a unit or swarm underground. If you have three markers, then each could be one of three tankers, or you could just as easily have two swarms of warriors and a swarm of tankers.
In addition, putting three tankers under one marker wouldn't create any imbalance in my opinion. If you do not have additional markers in your pool all three tankers are stuck going the same place, while if you do have unused markers in your pool then you have the added flexibility of being able to split up the swarm. Personally, I would want to have at least one marker to spare anyway, just in case I need it.
For one thing, you don't buy a marker for a specific unit but rather for the tactical advantage of having a unit or swarm underground. If you have three markers, then each could be one of three tankers, or you could just as easily have two swarms of warriors and a swarm of tankers.
In addition, putting three tankers under one marker wouldn't create any imbalance in my opinion. If you do not have additional markers in your pool all three tankers are stuck going the same place, while if you do have unused markers in your pool then you have the added flexibility of being able to split up the swarm. Personally, I would want to have at least one marker to spare anyway, just in case I need it.
JoseDominguez
Mongoose
You assign models to markers before the first turn, during deployment. You swarm at the start of an action. We've always read it that units starting underground needed to have a marker each. It's the whole point of having tunneling assets.
This opens the rules up to abuse..... why buy warriors in 15's? Because in fives they take lots more reaction fire. What's the negative? It's harder to bring them up above ground due to the ten size points an action limit.
So you have to weigh up the advantages of unit size vs manoeuvreability and buy units accordingly.
Not any more though, just buy them in fives, swarm before the game and you have the best of both worlds. Units of five acting as units of fifteen, until that's not convenient, then they split.
That removes a major strategic decision from a bug player (like myself) I'll just have three, five bug units swarmed under my markers.
And what about hoppers? Stick 15 hoppers (three units of five) with a burrower. That's a nightmare. Previously this was tricky as putting more than five in a unit made them hard to bring up.
Plasmas? Buy three, stick them with a burrower, pop up artillery.
And you claim that swarming tankers limits their movement? What about coordinate, you can now race all three up the board at 15" a turn can't you.
My new front line is three tankers central, flanked by a swarm of 15 subterranean hopper/burrowers and topped off by two plasmas underground at the back.
I prefer to play bugs, being allowed to swarm before the game starts makes things a whole lot easier, also, the MI guessing game of 'what's under the markers?' is now impossible, if each one could be a swarm, there's no point even trying.
I agree with being able to swarm underground, but not being able to swarm before the game begins.
This opens the rules up to abuse..... why buy warriors in 15's? Because in fives they take lots more reaction fire. What's the negative? It's harder to bring them up above ground due to the ten size points an action limit.
So you have to weigh up the advantages of unit size vs manoeuvreability and buy units accordingly.
Not any more though, just buy them in fives, swarm before the game and you have the best of both worlds. Units of five acting as units of fifteen, until that's not convenient, then they split.
That removes a major strategic decision from a bug player (like myself) I'll just have three, five bug units swarmed under my markers.
And what about hoppers? Stick 15 hoppers (three units of five) with a burrower. That's a nightmare. Previously this was tricky as putting more than five in a unit made them hard to bring up.
Plasmas? Buy three, stick them with a burrower, pop up artillery.
And you claim that swarming tankers limits their movement? What about coordinate, you can now race all three up the board at 15" a turn can't you.
My new front line is three tankers central, flanked by a swarm of 15 subterranean hopper/burrowers and topped off by two plasmas underground at the back.
I prefer to play bugs, being allowed to swarm before the game starts makes things a whole lot easier, also, the MI guessing game of 'what's under the markers?' is now impossible, if each one could be a swarm, there's no point even trying.
I agree with being able to swarm underground, but not being able to swarm before the game begins.
dyssnowman
Mongoose
I am not sure if I understand your concern, so bear with me.
If you swarm three units of five swarmed under a marker, and you want to bring them up seperately you need a second tunnel marker. Five break from the swarm underground (requiring a new marker) then move onto the surface. If I understand you correctly, then this takes away some of the flexibility as far as saving points. Plus, while you will be able to get all fifteen onto the surface in one action, each individual group of five will be subject to reaction fire.
As far as my comments regarding limited maneuverability, I still stand by this. Yes, you can get a lot more bugs onto the surface in one turn, but unless you have the extra tunnel markers, you may not be able to spread out to attack on a full front. The MI can be extremely hard to catch when they are played right.
And most importantly, while this may be the official interpretation of the rules, that does not mean that you have to play it that way. If it has worked for you the other way this long, stick with it. I know that we have a few house rules that we use, so if you find this official rule creates too much of an imbalance, I would say don't use it. Just my 2 cents.
If you swarm three units of five swarmed under a marker, and you want to bring them up seperately you need a second tunnel marker. Five break from the swarm underground (requiring a new marker) then move onto the surface. If I understand you correctly, then this takes away some of the flexibility as far as saving points. Plus, while you will be able to get all fifteen onto the surface in one action, each individual group of five will be subject to reaction fire.
As far as my comments regarding limited maneuverability, I still stand by this. Yes, you can get a lot more bugs onto the surface in one turn, but unless you have the extra tunnel markers, you may not be able to spread out to attack on a full front. The MI can be extremely hard to catch when they are played right.
And most importantly, while this may be the official interpretation of the rules, that does not mean that you have to play it that way. If it has worked for you the other way this long, stick with it. I know that we have a few house rules that we use, so if you find this official rule creates too much of an imbalance, I would say don't use it. Just my 2 cents.
