Traveller, TAS, and AI

[MonsterX]

I am happy that Mongoose is taking this stance.

As an educator, I make students actually learn the skills and produce materials themselves. The less capable of them resent this, but they don't need me and don't need a degree if all they want is to ask AI to do it for them: they can go do that by themselves. Maybe they should, I don't know. Those who learn the material will probably be the last generation to learn how to actually do stuff, but at least while the current system is in place, education will continue. In a few years, we'll have students using only using AIs to write essay assignments and teachers reading them with AI and all actual learning activity expunged from the system, but not yet.

If Mongoose wanted AI generated garbage, they could get AI to do it for them themselves, they wouldn't need you to re-badge it as your own and submit it to TAS. In their shoes, I would not want to read an AI submission that takes more work for them to read, assess, and edit than it does for the writer to produce.

Yes, this means that people who don't know how to write can't pretend to have written something, and people who don't know how to draw can't pretend to have drawn something. Oh well. Learn the skill, if you want to produce creative material for others to consume.

If you just want an outlet to share pictures that AI made for you, that's fine - there are lots of forums on the internet which let you do that so just go to one of those.

The Robot Revolution is well underway, but let's not surrender in advance. When it arrives, we'll have AIs producing the material, and playing the games for us and we won't be needed for any of it, so let's enjoy these last few years or months of relevance before that happens.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Then if it came out later that you lied, it would be fraud and a crime, so that should keep most people honest. Then you can just take them at their word and no need for any fancy AI detectors.

In our 24-odd years of experience, people in hobby gaming tend to be pretty honest, and I believe this simple statement/rule will cover 99.9% of everyone. If a bad actor appears, they will get outed at some point.

 

[JupiterIndustries]

As always, we would welcome any comments, criticisms or concerns about this policy.

Fine.

There was nothing wrong with the existing policy, and the change is being presented falsely as an altruistic move. You will see less TAS content period by virtue of what is being done here. There is no actual legitimate justification presented for this change in the announcement.

If you are selling something for money, you're subject to capitalist forces, which means supply and demand. If AI is creating high quality art for free, that's no different from AI being applied for other purposes.

The capitalist system of production is fundamentally incompatible with the changes that AI are about to create. That is a societal problem that needs constructive solutions to be resolved, not a head in the sand, highly restrictive approach.

Somehow we're supposed to believe that in a creative endeavor it's somehow different. I'm sorry but the harsh truth is that when you're taking money for something, you're up against the market. It says a lot that the language of supporting artists is also couched by "Oh well, it doesn't cost a lot to get a proper artist anyways." The altruism of such a change is demeaned by such comments.

People have a CHOICE over whether or not they want slop. If it is curated and provides value, then that value should be decided by the consumer.

I strongly urge Mongoose to revert to the previous, disclosure based policy.

 

[Anstett]

Fine.

There was nothing wrong with the existing policy, and the change is being presented falsely as an altruistic move. You will see less TAS content period by virtue of what is being done here. There is no actual legitimate justification presented for this change in the announcement.
.....
People have a CHOICE over whether or not they want slop. If it is curated and provides value, then that value should be decided by the consumer.

I strongly urge Mongoose to revert to the previous, disclosure based policy.

I think that one point several posters (not just Jupiter) have missed is that Mongoose is not saying you cannot publish materials with AI art in them for Traveller, you just cannot publish under the TAS banner.

Post in thread 'Change to TAS Conditions - Use of AI'

Today at 8:55 AM

Not all of us using AI are out to crank out junk. Some of us are just trying to get a decent-looking ship interior or a desert moon skyline without blowing a paycheck. We’re not replacing creativity—we’re just short on budget, not imagination.

This is understandable.

However, here is the dividing line - such a person wants to use Traveller and be paid for it (if not, knock yourself out with the Fair Use Policy!). If you want the money... spend a little money. If you do not have the visual artistic ability yourself (and I very much sympathise with that on a personal level...) a...

• MongooseMatt

• 
• 

Matt points out that the Fair Use is still there to publish all sorts of things, using what ever tools you want.

 

[Arkathan]

Fine.

There was nothing wrong with the existing policy, and the change is being presented falsely as an altruistic move. You will see less TAS content period by virtue of what is being done here. There is no actual legitimate justification presented for this change in the announcement.

If you are selling something for money, you're subject to capitalist forces, which means supply and demand. If AI is creating high quality art for free, that's no different from AI being applied for other purposes.

The capitalist system of production is fundamentally incompatible with the changes that AI are about to create. That is a societal problem that needs constructive solutions to be resolved, not a head in the sand, highly restrictive approach.

Somehow we're supposed to believe that in a creative endeavor it's somehow different. I'm sorry but the harsh truth is that when you're taking money for something, you're up against the market. It says a lot that the language of supporting artists is also couched by "Oh well, it doesn't cost a lot to get a proper artist anyways." The altruism of such a change is demeaned by such comments.

People have a CHOICE over whether or not they want slop. If it is curated and provides value, then that value should be decided by the consumer.

I strongly urge Mongoose to revert to the previous, disclosure based policy.

Recent studies of AI users who rely on the AI instead of their skills, or who lean on it regularly, show that their intellect is suffering for it.(Google it, it was on national news, and they were surprised by it because the presenters regularly used AI... That was pretty much the only reason I listened to it.)
I think the point is closer to, if you cannot do the work yourself or with people you support, don't be in the market. Do you want an investment counsellor who runs an AI for you instead of copying the moves of someone like Paul Pelosi? (You will lose money)
Everyone, except the untalented, are tired of the participation trophy mentality. It is fundamental to universal mammalian concepts of fairness. Earn it.

 

[JupiterIndustries]

Recent studies of AI users who rely on the AI instead of their skills, or who lean on it regularly, show that their intellect is suffering for it.(Google it, it was on national news, and they were surprised by it because the presenters regularly used AI... That was pretty much the only reason I listened to it.)
I think the point is closer to, if you cannot do the work yourself or with people you support, don't be in the market. Do you want an investment counsellor who runs an AI for you instead of copying the moves of someone like Paul Pelosi? (You will lose money)
Everyone, except the untalented, are tired of the participation trophy mentality. It is fundamental to universal mammalian concepts of fairness. Earn it.

Yes, yes, I have seen this highlighted multiple times by opponents of AI, but at the same time, someone who is incapable of becoming an artist is not going to suddenly have their intellect diminished because they are using said AI. Their drawing skills are not suffering because they had none in the first place. Language skills? Maybe another matter entirely. It's plainly obvious that this is why Mongoose's policies in that regard are more accepted.

Either way, not doing sanity checking on results is a cognition issue, not an intellect or intelligence issue. It's been happening for thousands of years. It will happen for thousands more, and AI will not change that.

Your investment counselor example is faulty, because I can absolutely guarantee that almost all investment companies and providers are leveraging technology and AI usage in order to better their outcomes. Look at a product like Autopilot which includes AI investment portfolios for example.

There are a lot of people in tabletop gaming as a whole who are ignoring an absolute win for communal development practices, open sourced AI models, by prioritizing the ongoing private ownership of the means of production over a democratization of that process. For what is supposedly such a progressive community, it is downright disheartening.

 

[JupiterIndustries]

I think that one point several posters (not just Jupiter) have missed is that Mongoose is not saying you cannot publish materials with AI art in them for Traveller, you just cannot publish under the TAS banner.

Matt points out that the Fair Use is still there to publish all sorts of things, using what ever tools you want.

It is effectively one and the same. There is no incentive for those who at least want to make a hobbyist wage to develop for Traveller etc. They might as well make their own game.

 

[Anstett]

It is effectively one and the same. There is no incentive for those who at least want to make a hobbyist wage to develop for Traveller etc. They might as well make their own game.

I disagree.

While both show up on a DriveThru search of Traveller products it leaves the consumer with several options.
1 - Official Mongoose products
2 - TAS products - fan/small publisher created under stricter rules. Not just AI but also settings, rules, etc
3 - Fair Use products - fan/small publisher created using terms from settings and rules but taking them in a different path, use many means to create the product
4 - Generic 2D6 - fan/small publisher anything goes

If customers know what guidelines are they can choose which products to support with their money.

 

[MasterGwydion]

In our 24-odd years of experience, people in hobby gaming tend to be pretty honest, and I believe this simple statement/rule will cover 99.9% of everyone. If a bad actor appears, they will get outed at some point.

Yeah, but the Statement of Authenticity, is to protect Mongoose. Think of it like people having to sign a release form before riding a roller coaster or going into a haunted house. It keeps you from being sued by that 99.9%. In that way, the Statement is kind of like insurance. You have it, but hope you never need it.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Yeah, but the Statement of Authenticity, is to protect Mongoose. Think of it like people having to sign a release form before riding a roller coaster or going into a haunted house. It keeps you from being sued by that 99.9%. In that way, the Statement is kind of like insurance. You have it, but hope you never need it.

This is fair.

It is effectively one and the same. There is no incentive for those who at least want to make a hobbyist wage to develop for Traveller etc. They might as well make their own game.

Ah, but this is the nub...

On a commercial level, you have a decent point. But we don't want it approached from a (purely) commercial level. This is about having a passion for Traveller - the art of Traveller, if we wanted to be a bit high-brow about it. And that is precisely what AI generation cannot have (at present levels of technology...).

This is something we feel we need to institute now because what we can foresee happening in the (very?) near future.

As I said, this is all probably unavoidable in the wider scheme of things, but we don't have any input into that. We can act as the stewards of Traveller.

 

[Moodel]

I'm that dude that told you not to f**k it up. This is a good stance imo. And thanks for the discount.

 

[MasterGwydion]

If the only thing important is money, then you have lost everything human. If the only thing important is making money, then empathy is no longer important. It becomes everyone out for themselves to make as much money as possible, since that is all that is important. Should we go back to having no labor laws and just let people do whatever they want no matter how many people it harms or kills? At what point do morals trump money? Children working in coal mines? Slaves working plantations? Toxic materials in our kids toys and in our house paint and there is no recourse, because, "hey! they were only trying to make money"? Where is the line?

 

[Arkathan]

Yes, yes, I have seen this highlighted multiple times by opponents of AI, but at the same time, someone who is incapable of becoming an artist is not going to suddenly have their intellect diminished because they are using said AI. Their drawing skills are not suffering because they had none in the first place. Language skills? Maybe another matter entirely. It's plainly obvious that this is why Mongoose's policies in that regard are more accepted.

Either way, not doing sanity checking on results is a cognition issue, not an intellect or intelligence issue. It's been happening for thousands of years. It will happen for thousands more, and AI will not change that.

Your investment counselor example is faulty, because I can absolutely guarantee that almost all investment companies and providers are leveraging technology and AI usage in order to better their outcomes. Look at a product like Autopilot which includes AI investment portfolios for example.

There are a lot of people in tabletop gaming as a whole who are ignoring an absolute win for communal development practices, open sourced AI models, by prioritizing the ongoing private ownership of the means of production over a democratization of that process. For what is supposedly such a progressive community, it is downright disheartening.

Investment planner example is not faulty. Because of his connections, Pelosi outperforms AI.

 

[JupiterIndustries]

Investment planner example is not faulty. Because of his connections, Pelosi outperforms AI.

That is a situation in which there is insider information over incomplete information. Still not comparable.

 

[JupiterIndustries]

On a commercial level, you have a decent point. But we don't want it approached from a (purely) commercial level. This is about having a passion for Traveller - the art of Traveller, if we wanted to be a bit high-brow about it. And that is precisely what AI generation cannot have (at present levels of technology...).

This is something we feel we need to institute now because what we can foresee happening in the (very?) near future.

As I said, this is all probably unavoidable in the wider scheme of things, but we don't have any input into that. We can act as the stewards of Traveller.

If an artist cannot make a sufficient wage to make a living off of that line of work (again, you pointed out that they don't cost alot, for what TAS content distributors is already not a significant sum) then is it justifiable?

And yes, you're entirely within your rights to make that determination as the rights holder and apply policy as you see fit, but if it's inevitable anyways, why not try to find a better approach and channel for resolving this rather than an outright block. What was wrong with the previous policy aside from the creative implications? What actual substantiate impact was there on art creators as a result of the existing policy?

Unfortunately, the bog standard approach is that all AI work is garbage and not worth the pixels/paper it's generated on. The fact is it isn't. The discussion about detectors for this content is proof positive of that.

 

[JupiterIndustries]

I disagree.

While both show up on a DriveThru search of Traveller products it leaves the consumer with several options.
1 - Official Mongoose products
2 - TAS products - fan/small publisher created under stricter rules. Not just AI but also settings, rules, etc
3 - Fair Use products - fan/small publisher created using terms from settings and rules but taking them in a different path, use many means to create the product
4 - Generic 2D6 - fan/small publisher anything goes

If customers know what guidelines are they can choose which products to support with their money.

I don't think there's any difference. Fair use cannot make a profit and anything generic is not implicitly supported within the context of the Traveller system.

 

[Arkathan]

If an artist cannot make a sufficient wage to make a living off of that line of work (again, you pointed out that they don't cost alot, for what TAS content distributors is already not a significant sum) then is it justifiable?

And yes, you're entirely within your rights to make that determination as the rights holder and apply policy as you see fit, but if it's inevitable anyways, why not try to find a better approach and channel for resolving this rather than an outright block. What was wrong with the previous policy aside from the creative implications? What actual substantiate impact was there on art creators as a result of the existing policy?

Unfortunately, the bog standard approach is that all AI work is garbage and not worth the pixels/paper it's generated on. The fact is it isn't. The discussion about detectors for this content is proof positive of that.

Artist: So your solution is to deny them ANY avenue for making money, even as a hobby/side hustle.

The point is that PEOPLE are more important to support than AI faking it.
To be brutally honest, the people who think that faking it with AI should be valued as much as DOING it in person seem to suffer from something similar to Dunning-Kruger. Maybe not the low IQ part in every case, but definitely the same ballpark. Again, use of AI to fake art, stoke your ego and fill your pocket without having the talent to do it yourself smacks of the participation trophy mentality that is among the roots of societal decay. "I should get the glory because I breathe." No.

 

[JupiterIndustries]

Artist: So your solution is to deny them ANY avenue for making money, even as a hobby/side hustle.

The point is that PEOPLE are more important to support than AI faking it.
To be brutally honest, the people who think that faking it with AI should be valued as much as DOING it in person seem to suffer from something similar to Dunning-Kruger. Maybe not the low IQ part in every case, but definitely the same ballpark. Again, use of AI to fake art, stoke your ego and fill your pocket without having the talent to do it yourself smacks of the participation trophy mentality that is among the roots of societal decay. "I should get the glory because I breathe." No.

That is literally what Mongoose are doing though by prohibiting TAS usage for people using any AI art in their work?

And again, you've gone to an entirely emotive response on whether or not it's worthy of peoples money.

Let the market decide. You do not have to buy it if you don't think it's worthwhile. We KNOW you don't like AI. That's entirely obvious.

 

[JupiterIndustries]

If the only thing important is money, then you have lost everything human. If the only thing important is making money, then empathy is no longer important. It becomes everyone out for themselves to make as much money as possible, since that is all that is important. Should we go back to having no labor laws and just let people do whatever they want no matter how many people it harms or kills? At what point do morals trump money? Children working in coal mines? Slaves working plantations? Toxic materials in our kids toys and in our house paint and there is no recourse, because, "hey! they were only trying to make money"? Where is the line?

This is probably why Mongoose won't release the MGT2E SRD publicly

 

[MasterGwydion]

That is literally what Mongoose are doing though by prohibiting TAS usage for people using any AI art in their work?

And again, you've gone to an entirely emotive response on whether or not it's worthy of peoples money.

Let the market decide. You do not have to buy it if you don't think it's worthwhile. We KNOW you don't like AI. That's entirely obvious.

False equivalency.

That is like saying that you should be allowed to compete as a chess Grandmaster because you can use a chess program to recommend moves to you.

No. Just, no.