Traveller 5
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The Dark Avenger
Mongoose
It's perhaps telling that the 'T5 is out now' April 1st joke has been going on so long, and become so wearisome, that nobody bothers with it any more.
Jon Brazer Enterprises
Mongoose
I was wondering when this april fools joke would pop up.
alex_greene
Guest
I don't have enough years left in me to wait for T5.
I might enjoy vampire games, but I'm not myself immortal. I just play one on TV.
I might enjoy vampire games, but I'm not myself immortal. I just play one on TV.
Assuming I actually have any money sometime :lol:
I would buy T5, for sure, but then, what can I say, it's the Fanboy in me
in all seriousness though, I think T5 will be pretty darn impressive, might be too much for me though in my current ageing state to actually run, heck, pass the Anagathics
I would buy T5, for sure, but then, what can I say, it's the Fanboy in me
in all seriousness though, I think T5 will be pretty darn impressive, might be too much for me though in my current ageing state to actually run, heck, pass the Anagathics
The Dark Avenger
Mongoose
You could probably make a playable game out of T5, but it's not that at present. What it is, is a giant mass of tables and rules that attempt to codify everything in the universe and put it all in a neat little box.
There's just too much of it, and it seems to be trying to replace the Referee with endless tables rather than create a simple framework to play some games with. In that, it's almost exactly the opposite of what most people like about CT - ie its loose simplicity.
I suspect that T5 might appeal to people who can't find a gaming group, because there are so many options for solo play there. Anyone with OCD might like the way it shoehorns everything into compliance with a few digits of code.
That's one of the things I found very restrictive when I was writing for Traveller; the precise definitions don't always match what would be realistic in the setting, which makes them a bit pointless (well, it's a class C port except for all these things that don't fit the defintion) and attracts the wrath of purists who think that a Class C port is a Class C port and must be exactly like the definition even if that doesn't make sense.
IMO games need a framework but much less precision than T5. Rules of thumb are more useful than trying to shove everything into neat little boxes.
I think that you could cull a decent game out of T5, and have a lot left over to form the basis of specialist supplements. All the work that's gone into making the whole package thus far would not be wasted - it'd mean that what was eventually published remained coherent right across its many supplements, much like CT didn't. (Because CT was built out of case-by-case bolt-ons).
In short, what I'm suggesting needs to be done is:
- Cull a simple core system out of the vast morass of T5 rules
- Treat all the rest like the 'engine' in a computer game, or as a developer's ruleset for creating supplements. Ie the existing material would be the basis for a much simpler published set, and would ensure coherence.
- Write the 'publishable' version in an accessible style rather than the universe-operating-manual style that it seems to be curently written in.
- Write it up from the point of view of being a game that people grab and play, rather than a toolkit for 30-year Traveller veterans to use.
- Present the rules system as a set of guidelines rather than an attempt to exactly classify codify everything in the universe.
- Put out some sourcebooks at the same time.
The latter is vital, IMO. If T5 is simply pushed out as a rules set/toolkit, then a few diehard traveller fans and completists will buy it, and then it'll vanish without trace. That'd be a shame, to waste all that effort.
The way to avoid that is to try to achieve some popularity as a game that people might play, and that requires more than a vast tome of tables and rules, written in a very dry and not particularly accessible style.
Sadly, I can't see any sign of this happening, which means that if t5 ever actually reaches the point where it can be published, chances are it'll sink without trace. I wouldn't want something I'd invested that much work in to be wasted like that, and I don't imagine anyone involved does either.
There's just too much of it, and it seems to be trying to replace the Referee with endless tables rather than create a simple framework to play some games with. In that, it's almost exactly the opposite of what most people like about CT - ie its loose simplicity.
I suspect that T5 might appeal to people who can't find a gaming group, because there are so many options for solo play there. Anyone with OCD might like the way it shoehorns everything into compliance with a few digits of code.
That's one of the things I found very restrictive when I was writing for Traveller; the precise definitions don't always match what would be realistic in the setting, which makes them a bit pointless (well, it's a class C port except for all these things that don't fit the defintion) and attracts the wrath of purists who think that a Class C port is a Class C port and must be exactly like the definition even if that doesn't make sense.
IMO games need a framework but much less precision than T5. Rules of thumb are more useful than trying to shove everything into neat little boxes.
I think that you could cull a decent game out of T5, and have a lot left over to form the basis of specialist supplements. All the work that's gone into making the whole package thus far would not be wasted - it'd mean that what was eventually published remained coherent right across its many supplements, much like CT didn't. (Because CT was built out of case-by-case bolt-ons).
In short, what I'm suggesting needs to be done is:
- Cull a simple core system out of the vast morass of T5 rules
- Treat all the rest like the 'engine' in a computer game, or as a developer's ruleset for creating supplements. Ie the existing material would be the basis for a much simpler published set, and would ensure coherence.
- Write the 'publishable' version in an accessible style rather than the universe-operating-manual style that it seems to be curently written in.
- Write it up from the point of view of being a game that people grab and play, rather than a toolkit for 30-year Traveller veterans to use.
- Present the rules system as a set of guidelines rather than an attempt to exactly classify codify everything in the universe.
- Put out some sourcebooks at the same time.
The latter is vital, IMO. If T5 is simply pushed out as a rules set/toolkit, then a few diehard traveller fans and completists will buy it, and then it'll vanish without trace. That'd be a shame, to waste all that effort.
The way to avoid that is to try to achieve some popularity as a game that people might play, and that requires more than a vast tome of tables and rules, written in a very dry and not particularly accessible style.
Sadly, I can't see any sign of this happening, which means that if t5 ever actually reaches the point where it can be published, chances are it'll sink without trace. I wouldn't want something I'd invested that much work in to be wasted like that, and I don't imagine anyone involved does either.
I doubt that this would be enough to make it a success, it would still haveThe Dark Avenger said:
the baggage of the Third Imperium setting and only add another layer of
system to it. Unfortunately the Third Imperium setting is very much sho-
wing its age, it has almost become a kind of retro-science fiction setting,
because it ignores many important real world developments of the last
few decades, whether in astrophysics, biotechnology or computer techno-
logy. Give it a few more years of stagnation, and it will begin to look and
feel like a slightly modernized version of Space 1889. No matter how ex-
cellent the next system will be (and I do not consider T5 as excellent in
any way), the Third Imperium setting is hardly what the next generation
of roleplaying gamers would define as modern science fiction.
The Dark Avenger
Mongoose
... and the inevitable question is: so why am I not offering to help with this?
Actually I did. I assume that my involvement was not wanted, since the work I did (in response to a direct request to look at part of T5 from Marc Miller) was simply ignored - I got no response, not even a 'thanks for taking the time out of your work to do what I asked you to do, for free'.
After that, I was left out of the T5 loop at the FFE end (presumably I wasn't wanted) and I wasn't in a hurry to waste more work that would be ignored. I politely said nothing about T5 for a long, long time, until more recent events showed that I had nothing whatsoever to gain from presenting a pro-FFE stance. But that's a different story.
After that, I started saying what I thought. I know that what I had to say was not what Marc Miller wanted to hear, but there are some huge mistakes being made with the T5 project and I felt that somebody needed to point them out. And besides, I was saying things that I thought to be true... I'm entitled to that.
The end result was that since I wasn't saying lovely supportive things about T5, my input wasn't wanted. My experience is that we all need to have 'that guy' around who'll tell you where you're screwing up whether you like it or not. I owe my writing career to 'that guy'. I even explained that to Marc. I got no reply.
But anyhow, I did actually try to help with T5 back in the day, and it was made clear that my contribution was not valued (even though it was solicited). I've since suggested that I might be a good choice to write some of the sourcebooks that 'are just waiting to be written' (WTF?) but that suggestion was met with a response along the lines of 'well, Marc might be willing to grant you the privilege of writing for T5 I suppose, but you'd have to earn it' so I dropped that idea like a live grenade.
T5 needs someone like me involved. I'm the guy who pushed all those half-thought-out ideas through to finished products for QLI, and made the T20 rulebook actually useable (you should have seen the first draft).
I could make T5 accessible to the typical player and write a setting for it that would sell. However, certain members of the 'inner circle' at FFE seem to think that this should be viewed as a privilege rather than my day job.
So... why am I not involved with T5? Largely because I would be expected to treat it as a privilege. Firms that pay me vastly more than anyone in the games industry could treat our interactions as a two-way street, but the people at FFE want me to behave like a supplicant.
So in the end I'm not involved for the same reason as I stopped writing for the other versions of Traveller. All I'm really saying here is that I *did* put my money where my mouth is and try to get invovled, so it's not just empty criticism from the sidelines.
I would still be willing to work on T5 or other versions of Traveller, but as a valued contributor rather than a supplicant who should be glad of the chance to write for The Olde Game. That's how FFE have treated me for several years now, despite promises to contrary, and I wearied of it.
Oh well, I suspect they need me far more than I need them.
Actually I did. I assume that my involvement was not wanted, since the work I did (in response to a direct request to look at part of T5 from Marc Miller) was simply ignored - I got no response, not even a 'thanks for taking the time out of your work to do what I asked you to do, for free'.
After that, I was left out of the T5 loop at the FFE end (presumably I wasn't wanted) and I wasn't in a hurry to waste more work that would be ignored. I politely said nothing about T5 for a long, long time, until more recent events showed that I had nothing whatsoever to gain from presenting a pro-FFE stance. But that's a different story.
After that, I started saying what I thought. I know that what I had to say was not what Marc Miller wanted to hear, but there are some huge mistakes being made with the T5 project and I felt that somebody needed to point them out. And besides, I was saying things that I thought to be true... I'm entitled to that.
The end result was that since I wasn't saying lovely supportive things about T5, my input wasn't wanted. My experience is that we all need to have 'that guy' around who'll tell you where you're screwing up whether you like it or not. I owe my writing career to 'that guy'. I even explained that to Marc. I got no reply.
But anyhow, I did actually try to help with T5 back in the day, and it was made clear that my contribution was not valued (even though it was solicited). I've since suggested that I might be a good choice to write some of the sourcebooks that 'are just waiting to be written' (WTF?) but that suggestion was met with a response along the lines of 'well, Marc might be willing to grant you the privilege of writing for T5 I suppose, but you'd have to earn it' so I dropped that idea like a live grenade.
T5 needs someone like me involved. I'm the guy who pushed all those half-thought-out ideas through to finished products for QLI, and made the T20 rulebook actually useable (you should have seen the first draft).
I could make T5 accessible to the typical player and write a setting for it that would sell. However, certain members of the 'inner circle' at FFE seem to think that this should be viewed as a privilege rather than my day job.
So... why am I not involved with T5? Largely because I would be expected to treat it as a privilege. Firms that pay me vastly more than anyone in the games industry could treat our interactions as a two-way street, but the people at FFE want me to behave like a supplicant.
So in the end I'm not involved for the same reason as I stopped writing for the other versions of Traveller. All I'm really saying here is that I *did* put my money where my mouth is and try to get invovled, so it's not just empty criticism from the sidelines.
I would still be willing to work on T5 or other versions of Traveller, but as a valued contributor rather than a supplicant who should be glad of the chance to write for The Olde Game. That's how FFE have treated me for several years now, despite promises to contrary, and I wearied of it.
Oh well, I suspect they need me far more than I need them.
