Transhumanism and Traveller

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sideranautae said:
GypsyComet said:
sideranautae said:
I think that given the diverse environments where humans live in the Trav universe that mods for that would predominate. Respiratory augments to breath in tainted atmosphere, very thin, etc. Major stuff for combat troops.

That really depends on what sort of setting you use as the base for the transhumanist stuff.

A setting that doesn't lean toward Transhumanism until long after some sort of FTL (or equivalent, which Jump *is*)

Where do you think that the OTU would lie in that sense?

Note that my response above was predicated on the availability of the Mongoose ATU License. Every universe is different.

For the OTU, I don't see a broad-spectrum move toward transhumanism just sort of happening. Localized movement is a different matter.

We have no evidence of the Vilani or the other two early spacefaring races exploring the idea during those first 5-7000 years, and the Vilani in particular lacked the biological know-how to get very far. The Geonee might have, based on some art from later eras, but there is no direct evidence. The Terrans didn't show up until the Vilani, Suerrat, and Geonee had been using Jump drive for thousands of years. With no direct evidence again, it appears that the Terrans didn't go much farther down that road (than we have already) by the time a thousand years of war with the Vilani, running the resulting state, and attempting to manage the collapse distracted them.

If the OTU's humans explored transhumanism at all prior to the current era, it would probably have been either during the Ancient's Era or during the Long Night. Superscience would have driven the Ancients Era experiments, while the Ancients themselves would have used a combination of tech and psi. The Long Night would have varied from place to place, but suggestions in an MT-era fanzine place the center of technology-based experiments in Dagudashaag (what a map in MT calls the Lancia Cultural Region), while psionic experiments might have been anywhere.

Why the psionic component? Because a number of fiction sources strongly imply that connectedness is a big component of the social side of transhumanism. Sufficiently broad psi, which Traveller assumes, also allows some of the external capabilities often sought by transhuman endeavors. To the inhabitants of the modern OTU, psionics is certainly a branch of science, if not a well understood one, and what cannot be attained by one branch of scientific endeavor might be attained by another.

As such, the modern OTU, were it to embrace prionic, technologic, or biologic transhumanism beyond what it has already done (Imperial/Solomani geneering, Droyne community mindedness, Zhodani society molding, and the proposed Lancian cybernetic path, as well as the old JTAS computer implant) would probably stick with the same fields.
--Long-term adaption to environments seems to be a priority (in the Imperium, at least) over short-term, since completely external technology appears to have that handled. The Imperium appears to have a broad tradition of not mucking with already existing people and being very cautious about making new types, while the Solomani appear to have entirely material goals and freely tinker for fun and profit.
--The Droyne are static to all casual observers, but probably have more tricks that they don't show outsiders.
--We really don't know if the Zhodani are looking for that next step in development or are just trying to keep the masses fat and happy. Which direction they go with hypothetical transhuman experiments is really down to that examination of motives.
--I'll have to pull out that issue of Signal GK to see if the Lancians trend that way, or are tied to short-term goals. I don't think Transhumanism was even a word when that article was written.

The OTU is too diverse to follow one path, in other words.
 
I'm unsure of my OTU "history" so perhaps my thoughts are in error but aren't some of the Traveller races uplifted or the result of Grandfather playing about with a few test tubes and some DNA?

If so, the OTU has it's own transhuman or however you want to describe it, elements already.
 
hiro said:
I'm unsure of my OTU "history" so perhaps my thoughts are in error but aren't some of the Traveller races uplifted or the result of Grandfather playing about with a few test tubes and some DNA?

If so, the OTU has it's own transhuman or however you want to describe it, elements already.

The vargr are uplifted Terran Canine stock.
 
Trans Canine!

:lol:

Has "Uplifting" been described in any detail?
 
I'm not sure I would agree that uplift is the same as transhuman development. There are some surface similarities and someone could argue that both types of modification are possibly just accelerating a natural process, however, I think that while uplift is a species-wide sustainable development from low sentience into true sapience, transhumanism is a selfish goal of trying to be better than everyone else. I think that including uplift in with transhumanism is just unnecessarily clouding the issue.
 
Rick said:
I'm not sure I would agree that uplift is the same as transhuman development. There are some surface similarities and someone could argue that both types of modification are possibly just accelerating a natural process, however, I think that while uplift is a species-wide sustainable development from low sentience into true sapience, transhumanism is a selfish goal of trying to be better than everyone else. I think that including uplift in with transhumanism is just unnecessarily clouding the issue.

There's a good dash of pedantic semantics in your statement! :mrgreen:

To add my own, I'm curious as to how long you think before the average Terran dog acquires what you and I might agree upon as true "I think therefore I shop" sapience?

As the definitions are poor and from the words I've read in this thread, not agreed upon, I don't agree that transhumanism is either selfish or motivated by being better than everyone else. Sure that's how it's played out in some games but I've already expressed no interest in playing them! Personally, I'd like to see it as you have described uplift: "a species-wide sustainable development". As humans encounter new environments or situations we proactively help ourselves adapt in order to improve and/or survive. Traveller glosses over the huge differences in environments we would encounter as we left this planet and ventured to exo systems, if you start adding those details species-wide sustainable development maybe an absolute requirement and not a vanity exercise. Granted Traveller doesn't do that but 2300 does.
 
hiro said:
Has "Uplifting" been described in any detail?
Not how it's done. Just the results of it. In Mongoose's Solomani race book. Dolphins, apes, etc.

hiro said:
To add my own, I'm curious as to how long you think before the average Terran dog acquires what you and I might agree upon as true "I think therefore I shop" sapience?

No one knows how brains work yet. So it will be awhile still. Governments would love to control their people better though once laws are passed to make citizens hand over their minds, regardless if whether or not any such technology is even developed.
 
ShawnDriscoll said:
No one knows how brains work yet. So it will be awhile still. Governments would love to control their people better though once laws are passed to make citizens hand over their minds, regardless if whether or not any such technology is even developed.

Facebook and Google have beaten the governments to it... they may not know how they work but they are mining them to market to them and no, it's not the same thing but we're straying off to the near possible of today and not the fiction of tomorrow.
 
hiro said:
Granted Traveller doesn't do that but 2300 does.
However 2300AD is 'Traveller'... just not OTU.

Given that pedanticism, I think the areas that might need expansion are those related to the nature of the explosion of technology (radical miniaturisation, rapidity of development, whimsy and rampant personalisation in that development, along with general changes due to its ubiquitousness), and above all societal changes brought about by such changes and their on-going implications. A mere shopping list of gear would be dull though.

Of course a lot of that could be handled by description and prose, however there are definitely areas that could be expanded upon.

As an example, I quite liked the Chargen in the 'Chthonian Star' Traveller - it had a certain "chop-chop! time is moving on fast!!" quality to it (half terms etc.).

"Transhumanism" certainly does mean different things to different people, but there undoubtedly are enough Sci-Fi novels and films, with related tropes and ideas, out there that could be mined for a supplement... it just might not be a full-on OTU one (or simply a generic book).
 
hiro said:
ShawnDriscoll said:
No one knows how brains work yet. So it will be awhile still. Governments would love to control their people better though once laws are passed to make citizens hand over their minds, regardless if whether or not any such technology is even developed.

Facebook and Google have beaten the governments to it... they may not know how they work but they are mining them to market to them and no, it's not the same thing but we're straying off to the near possible of today and not the fiction of tomorrow.
You're just talking about data collecting is all. Use to be done by mail-in family household survey cards. Nothing new there. And it still doesn't work even with computers because we still get junk mail that has nothing to do with us. I see transhumanism as just one major mass spamming cluster, with Reddit and 4chan nonsense (and of course the p0rn, which pays for it all).
 
hiro said:
I'm unsure of my OTU "history" so perhaps my thoughts are in error but aren't some of the Traveller races uplifted or the result of Grandfather playing about with a few test tubes and some DNA?

If so, the OTU has it's own transhuman or however you want to describe it, elements already.

There are some TransHuman plot points in the Mongoose version of Secret of the Ancients.

Grandfather and/or other Ancients uplifted the Vargr from Terran canids, and tinkered with several of the Human offshoots seen in the modern OTU (most obviously the Sydites). I don't consider uplift or long-term geneering to be very high on the Transhuman (or Transwhatever) scale.
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
So tell me how this would affect the Traveller setting if these kind of wormholes were used instead of the Jump Drive?
The most obvious would be to create choke-points for intersystem travel at the wormholes. Guard the wormhole and you control anyone entering or leaving the system via that wormhole. Control all the wormholes entering or leaving a system and you are well on your way to controlling the system.

Also, presuming that most systems have multiple wormholes leading to distant destinations, then you are almost certainly able to travel in time within the same star system. For example, you go from system A to system B, from system B to system C, and then from system C you go directly to system A. You are now in system A hundreds or even thousands of years in the future from when you left. Reverse the journey and you are back in system A in your present. You can do this for any star system containing multiple wormholes, as long as the wormholes are part of an interconnected wormhole network.
 
Rick said:
I'm not sure I would agree that uplift is the same as transhuman development. There are some surface similarities and someone could argue that both types of modification are possibly just accelerating a natural process, however, I think that while uplift is a species-wide sustainable development from low sentience into true sapience, transhumanism is a selfish goal of trying to be better than everyone else. I think that including uplift in with transhumanism is just unnecessarily clouding the issue.
Except that I know of a number of people working to make transhumanism a reality whose goal is to make these technologies available to everyone - this is in fact a major issue in some sections of the transhumanist community (to the extent that there is one). From my PoV, where someone who is into transhumanism falls on the only enhance themselves/give everyone the chance to enchance themselves axis is a good judge of whether or not they are a good person.
 
Technocrats have no issues with transhumanism. And if it's made law and has a mandated tax added to it, the better it is in their eyes.
 
heron61 said:
Tom Kalbfus said:
So tell me how this would affect the Traveller setting if these kind of wormholes were used instead of the Jump Drive?
The most obvious would be to create choke-points for intersystem travel at the wormholes. Guard the wormhole and you control anyone entering or leaving the system via that wormhole. Control all the wormholes entering or leaving a system and you are well on your way to controlling the system.

Also, presuming that most systems have multiple wormholes leading to distant destinations, then you are almost certainly able to travel in time within the same star system. For example, you go from system A to system B, from system B to system C, and then from system C you go directly to system A. You are now in system A hundreds or even thousands of years in the future from when you left. Reverse the journey and you are back in system A in your present. You can do this for any star system containing multiple wormholes, as long as the wormholes are part of an interconnected wormhole network.

The most efficient network would be a hub and spoke system, each inhabited star system has one wormhole, while red giant star systems are the hubs with multiple wormholes.
 
The hubs then become the chokepoints of control. Does not matter if they are red giant stars with no value in and of themselves. Their value as a hub is enough to fight over and maintain control over.
 
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