Transhumanism and Traveller

[Anonymous]

OK, this may well have been done to death and no, I haven't searched for similar threads but here goes...

In the Wish list 2015 thread some have expressed strong opinions against TH and Traveller, some are in favour of a supplement. Rather than drag that thread down I thought I'd start a new one to ask why the detractors are so against it? I get that Traveller as originally envisioned, predates a good chunk of the current wave but I am sure there's sci-fi written before Traveller that encompasses humans enhanced by technology. I get that it's not canon.

I think that we're in changing times and that we are already taking the first steps towards what in game is called transhuman. We have prosthetic limbs, spectacles, pacemakers, transplanted organs. These all enhance or make good on a shortcoming of our bodies. It seems likely to me that current technology will soon spawn a wealth of enhancements we can opt to make to our bodies. We are no longer slaves to our own mortality and frailness. These tools are like any other that we've made to make our lives easier, would anyone seriously argue that we do away with cars because they have taken us away from our natural means of transport?

Why then the reluctance to embrace TH in Traveller?

I reiterate, I know it's not canon, please don't go off on a diatribe along those lines. And Tom, no, there is no link to Triplanetary thru this thread, please don't try to add it into the mix.

Increasingly, Mongoose are pushing Traveller as a rules set and not just a setting. I'm not trying to rehash that argument here either but if it's true that Mongoose see Traveller as rules and not just a setting then expanding the rules to incorporate TH is surely on the cards?

 

[Epicenter]

I think the dislike is purely based on the fact "Transhumanism" is so ill-defined.

Different people have different mental imagery of what "Transhumanism" is. It's not helped by the fact that a "Transhuman" supplement would likely be equally broad. Transhumanism often comes with a certain amount of baggage that isn't necessarily linked directly to Transhumanism: Truly reality-breaking nanotechnology where it feels it's more the author's excuse for adding in primal magic and post-scarcity societies.

The topic of transhumanism fascinates me and I'd like to see a setting with heavy transhuman elements. However, I don't really have much interest in a broad, generic supplement with various technologies you could add, especially ones where transhumanism is "fully embraced" by gamer writers. We've seen games like this: The players consist of: A "character" has transferred his intellect to a swarm of nanotechs turning him into a nearly immortal shapechanger who fights by reducing his enemies down to their component atoms; another person is playing an anthropomorphic dragon that has bulletproof scales and fly through the air on huge wings like something out of the old Albedo RPG; the next is playing the ship itself as an "infomorph" that can possess electronic devices effortlessly; and the most normal one is "merely" playing someone out of Deus Ex: Human Revolution. There's a little hyperbole in there, but only a little; a lot of the "Transhuman" RPGs out there get pretty close to allowing a character party like that.

Your milage may vary, of course, but that kind of thing has always seemed goofy to me. Both of the Transhuman RPGs I'm familiar with (Eclipse Phase and GURPS Transhuman Space) allow a lot of that kind of stuff. When you remove a lot of the human condition (or all of it in the case of a true "Posthuman" setting) and move into the realm of post-scarcity societies (which seems to often be a requirement of a Transhuman future), nevermind Traveller, it's often very hard to motivate a party of characters to work together, let alone work towards some end.

I'd certainly be interested in a focused Transhuman setting with an actual setting and limits on this kind of stuff, but I don't really want a broad supplement that'd mostly result in "the Big Book for Munchkins" where you're talking to someone about the fact you both play Traveller and when the other person mentions the "T" word you're left with that nervous laughter as you brace yourself for the tales of their game that will come next and most sane GMs simply have to fiat "no items from Book 15: Transhumans in my game."

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

OK, this may well have been done to death and no, I haven't searched for similar threads but here goes...

In the Wish list 2015 thread some have expressed strong opinions against TH and Traveller, some are in favour of a supplement. Rather than drag that thread down I thought I'd start a new one to ask why the detractors are so against it? I get that Traveller as originally envisioned, predates a good chunk of the current wave but I am sure there's sci-fi written before Traveller that encompasses humans enhanced by technology. I get that it's not canon.

I think that we're in changing times and that we are already taking the first steps towards what in game is called transhuman. We have prosthetic limbs, spectacles, pacemakers, transplanted organs. These all enhance or make good on a shortcoming of our bodies. It seems likely to me that current technology will soon spawn a wealth of enhancements we can opt to make to our bodies. We are no longer slaves to our own mortality and frailness. These tools are like any other that we've made to make our lives easier, would anyone seriously argue that we do away with cars because they have taken us away from our natural means of transport?

Why then the reluctance to embrace TH in Traveller?

I reiterate, I know it's not canon, please don't go off on a diatribe along those lines. And Tom, no, there is no link to Triplanetary thru this thread, please don't try to add it into the mix.

Increasingly, Mongoose are pushing Traveller as a rules set and not just a setting. I'm not trying to rehash that argument here either but if it's true that Mongoose see Traveller as rules and not just a setting then expanding the rules to incorporate TH is surely on the cards?

You ever hear of Orion's Arm? www.orionsarm.com/ That is a Transhuman setting. I'd like to take some of the ideas and use them in Traveller. The question is do you really want Archailects http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/492d76d2f173e in your setting? They tend to upstage humans. Not only that, they tend to supersede them!

 

[Jeff Hopper]

Epicenter, my reasoned dislike of transhumanism in gaming has actually already been covered by you. I think that as subject matter, transhumanism is better suited to discussion on college campuses and in novels. During Actual Play, I have seen Players more interested in the equipment and cybernetics than in any exploration of the human condition. Mongoose Traveller already has a well done section on Cybernetics, the social ramifications can be handled by individual Referees in their own games and suited to their own tastes.

Also, I think your own self-professed interest here may be hurting your advocacy. Nowhere in any version of the Albedo RPG has there been anthropomorphic interplanetary flying dragons - the RPG is based on a very realistic hard SF comic book series by Steve Gallacci. Indeed, I think you have forgotten a transhuman PC trope - the group that when faced with a thought problem, just asks the AI computer for a solution and does whatever it suggests.

 

[alex_greene]

I think you have forgotten a transhuman PC trope - the group that when faced with a thought problem, just asks the AI computer for a solution and does whatever it suggests.

Good point.

I don't think I'll be writing any sort of a Transhuman Supplement or Book, myself. I think I'd ascribe to the philosophy that there are two ways for the population of a species to go after it faces its Stapledonian crisis - evolve to a trans!Species form, or evolve into a spacefaring - even starfaring - species.

Traveller is emphatically about the latter - extend our lives and the quality of our lives, sure; a little intelligence increase, definitely, because space is not forgiving of the stupid; but deep down, the way for the species to go is not to turn inward and become bubbles of nanogas or flying biomechanoid space dragons, but to go out to space and remain, in essence, human.

There is a third path - extinction - but that's not the message Traveller wants to put out.

 

[TrippyHippy]

duplicate

 

[TrippyHippy]

I think Traveller, as a generic science fiction rpg, is about anything you want it to be. If there are science fiction novels and movies out there that are interesting, with transhuman themes or otherwise, I want to be able to use Traveller to integrate them in my games as I wish. I’d like the game to be able to provide me the tools to do that, and then let me work out the ramifications in my own games as I see fit.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

OK, this may well have been done to death and no, I haven't searched for similar threads but here goes...

In the Wish list 2015 thread some have expressed strong opinions against TH and Traveller, some are in favour of a supplement. Rather than drag that thread down I thought I'd start a new one to ask why the detractors are so against it? I get that Traveller as originally envisioned, predates a good chunk of the current wave but I am sure there's sci-fi written before Traveller that encompasses humans enhanced by technology. I get that it's not canon.

I think that we're in changing times and that we are already taking the first steps towards what in game is called transhuman. We have prosthetic limbs, spectacles, pacemakers, transplanted organs. These all enhance or make good on a shortcoming of our bodies. It seems likely to me that current technology will soon spawn a wealth of enhancements we can opt to make to our bodies. We are no longer slaves to our own mortality and frailness. These tools are like any other that we've made to make our lives easier, would anyone seriously argue that we do away with cars because they have taken us away from our natural means of transport?

Why then the reluctance to embrace TH in Traveller?

I reiterate, I know it's not canon, please don't go off on a diatribe along those lines. And Tom, no, there is no link to Triplanetary thru this thread, please don't try to add it into the mix.

Increasingly, Mongoose are pushing Traveller as a rules set and not just a setting. I'm not trying to rehash that argument here either but if it's true that Mongoose see Traveller as rules and not just a setting then expanding the rules to incorporate TH is surely on the cards?

Traveller has game system and game setting books. Some of the setting/culture may not use the term "transhuman", but it is there. Cybernetics is the same thing. Some might still call it cyberpunk. There was no name for it really in the '60s/'70s other than far future science, which is the kind of science Traveller related with more. Don't make the mistake that Traveller's present is our future. It's a game. Transhuman games are basically one-trick pony sessions that get boring for players if they are the transhumans in the game. And Transhuman books tend to go out of date very quickly after publication. So you don't want a whole lot of it to be in books, because those books become useless unless you like The Matrix or Shadowrun kind of stuff from the '90s before wi-fi.

A referee can always just add "transhuman" skills/attributes to Traveller. And make a few careers for it. That's the beauty of Traveller.

 

[Reynard]

Transhumanism... wasn't that the Borg?

 

[Rick]

Transhumanism... wasn't that the Borg?

And Cybermen, perhaps? "Resistance is futile, we will upgrade you!" :twisted:

 

[Reynard]

I think a lot of people see transhumanism aspects going to extremes and therefore munchkin for the ones who love it and gamebreaker for others. If all you mean is a better human then many games already have it from cyberpunk genre to superhero to scifis like Traveller with their own augmentation aspects and it works in moderation. Going closer to the god route doesn't seem as fun. And no one plays an RPG for the philosophical discussions.

 

[sideranautae]

I have no problem with a TH Supp. Unfortunately most such TH game material has been written by people who have less understanding of basic science and human bio than a 7th grader and thus, is of pathetically low quality. I would look at an intelligently written booklet.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for your comments.

I find myself in general agreement with most.

2300 is my primary interest and between its take on cybernetics and DNA modification I think it it keeps things within the bounds of what we may call sensible. Players who want to play god are not players I would generally want to play with so I am fine with ignoring the excesses. The game needs to have challenges, if the ship's AI can answer all and there's no physical feat you can't achieve, why are you playing? If all players are super heroes the game has morphed and to me it's become too far fetched. Granted if everyone is a super man then it balances and the GM just ups the opposition but that's boring to me.

I think TH aspects can be introduced into a game as long as there's a sense of balance. What I like about them is I think it likely they will in some form exist in our future and so should be present in a game set in the future. For me 2300 encompasses the more moderate forms and I am mostly happy.

What I'd like to see is more written on the impacts on society that these modifications have made. That's pretty setting specific so if it's generic info it might not be as much use.

 

[Anonymous]

And no one plays an RPG for the philosophical discussions.

Maybe we should?

At it's best RPGs are story telling by a group, the best fiction explores these things, why not RPGs?

There has to be fun in it too but I like a touch of the serious mixed in...

 

[Jeff Hopper]

And no one plays an RPG for the philosophical discussions.

Maybe we should?

Would that still be a RPG then? As a followup, would that be commercially viable?

 

[Anonymous]

Would that still be a RPG then? As a followup, would that be commercially viable?

Well, if you consider the game is about the human condition then yes it would still be an RPG.

If you told people it was an exercise in philosophy, hell no it wouldn't be commercial!

This would be a M/YTU thing, I can't see anyone writing one and expecting to sell it!

 

[Reynard]

There seems to be a trend out there for narrative RPG games and you have to come up with witty monologues essentially writing the next action to proceed in encounters. Add discussions of the human condition and you have a game form of certain movies or tv shows I have to shut off! Keep the TH transparent within the system.

 

[Anonymous]

Being as the games I've played in the last few years have all been PbP, that's the norm for me, witty or otherwise...

If you accept that in the future, as today, technology will influence humans both mentally and physically then TH of some form or another will be part of the future.

Any trans human Mongoose book just needs to give you the options on how it should fit into your TU.

 

[Prime_Evil]

I support a book on Transhumanism, but one thing to consider is the possibility that radical augmentation may fundamentally change the nature of what it means to be human. This might pose issues where human players need to roleplay posthuman characters...

 

[Anonymous]

That's true for any far future game.

For the most part, we impose our current culture on the games we play. It's all a bit rubber suited man as alien. That's my issue with a Culture style setting, it's too far beyond us to really get our heads around.

But maybe that's just me... haha