TL9 Shipyards cannot build TL9 Spacecraft.

[Dracous]

I was going to try and build a TL9 spacecraft. I was hoping the hull rules had been clarified/changed in the December revision. Unfortunately, right out of the gate I the following problem

Page 1 of Ship Design states the following

Unless the referee states otherwise, it can be assumed that the Tech Level of the ship and its components will be the same as the shipyard in which it is being constructed.

Page 1 Paragraph 1 of Primitive and advanced spacecraft state the following

Many shipyards thus build ships that are effectively TL12, regardless of where the shipyard is actually located.

Page 1 paragraph 2 has the following

At the other end of the scale, isolated or interdicted worlds may construct vessels without being able to import specialised components from other systems, while Travellers may run into derelicts or ships built by more primitive species.

The above quote is important because I am setting my campaign on a TL9 isolated world.

In the The Prototype/Advanced table, the lowest tech modifier is -2. Which means the minimum TL for a spacecraft hull is TL10. Spacecraft hulls lower than TL10 are not allowed for in the rules.

Is this the intent of the MGT V2 High Guard rules? Is TL10 now the minimum tech level for spacecraft?

If not, how do I build a TL9 spacecraft hull? How many disadvantages does it have?

 

[Belisknar]

Before I explain my point, there is always rule 0, GM can overrule that line in the book.

Now, what I actually think. The table is only a starting point and a guideline you can go beyond the 2 TL change just add more disadvantages/advantages respectively.


TL-12 is only stated as the Norm because that is the standard Tech Level across the third Imperium. If you have a plannet that is isolated and doesn't have access to more advanced parts they are going to have to rely on their own TL-9 stuff.

 

[wbnc]

I would think the 2 steps adjustment limit would be from the base TL of the setting. So if the setting is TL9, then you can adjust TL 2 steps.(TL 7 to TL 11)

The fact you can only plug 2 advantages/disadvantages onto the tech is intended ( as best I can tell) to reflect the fact there is only so much tweaking you can do to a system.

 

[phavoc]

I would think that spacecraft hulls are allowed at any tech level where you can get to space. That seems to me to be an error in the rule.

Those rules probably need to be all located in the same section, or even paragraph. The spreading out of rules like that is a huge cause of errors in any rulebook.

 

[Chas]

Those rules probably need to be all located in the same section, or even paragraph. The spreading out of rules like that is a huge cause of errors in any rulebook.

This. It's bad enough that for high guard you have to flip back and forth between it and the Core rule book in multiple examples. Where ever possible rules should be restated together.

 

[Tenacious-Techhunter]

Now, what I actually think. The table is only a starting point and a guideline you can go beyond the 2 TL change just add more disadvantages/advantages respectively.

Mongoose should really make clear when a technology chart is topping or bottoming out due to technical constraints or instead due to mere omission; or, better yet, explicitly include those limits so the range is properly known.

 

[Belisknar]

Now, what I actually think. The table is only a starting point and a guideline you can go beyond the 2 TL change just add more disadvantages/advantages respectively.

Mongoose should really make clear when a technology chart is topping or bottoming out due to technical constraints or instead due to mere omission; or, better yet, explicitly include those limits so the range is properly known.

I agree, from what I've seen it's been an ongoing discussion. Your point of a clear definition of where things should start and stop has been brought up elsewhere though, so I believe it's at least being looked at in different places.

 

[Dracous]

I would think the 2 steps adjustment limit would be from the base TL of the setting. So if the setting is TL9, then you can adjust TL 2 steps.(TL 7 to TL 11)

The fact you can only plug 2 advantages/disadvantages onto the tech is intended ( as best I can tell) to reflect the fact there is only so much tweaking you can do to a system.

To clarify, my Setting is not TL9, just the the homeworld of the campaign.

But going on with your example this means that a TL9 world can build TL7 hulls and get Increase the cost by 100% and get two advantages. It can also build TL10 Hulls for an extra 100% and one disadvantage.

There is no overall benefit from building the tech level 10 hull to make the extra cost and disadvantage worth it. Meanwhile it is well worth building the TL7 hull for the advantages.
In fact, better yet, go for the TL6 hull and get 3 advantages for just %200 more.

Under this system, there is no logical reason to build a TL hull higher than what's available in the shipyard, and every advantage to using a lower tech level hull. So what we get is TL9 worlds building TL6 hulls getting three advantages, and TL15 worlds building TL12 Hulls to get three advantages.

Now, if that is what we want, I can absolutely live with that, but I think the situation with hulls need to be clarified. Right now I think it is too confusing.

 

[wbnc]

I would think the 2 steps adjustment limit would be from the base TL of the setting. So if the setting is TL9, then you can adjust TL 2 steps.(TL 7 to TL 11)

The fact you can only plug 2 advantages/disadvantages onto the tech is intended ( as best I can tell) to reflect the fact there is only so much tweaking you can do to a system.

To clarify, my Setting is not TL9, just the the homeworld of the campaign.

But going on with your example this means that a TL9 world can build TL7 hulls and get Increase the cost by 100% and get two advantages. It can also build TL10 Hulls for an extra 100% and one disadvantage.

There is no overall benefit from building the tech level 10 hull to make the extra cost and disadvantage worth it. Meanwhile it is well worth building the TL7 hull for the advantages.
In fact, better yet, go for the TL6 hull and get 3 advantages for just %200 more.

Under this system, there is no logical reason to build a TL hull higher than what's available in the shipyard, and every advantage to using a lower tech level hull. So what we get is TL9 worlds building TL6 hulls getting three advantages, and TL15 worlds building TL12 Hulls to get three advantages.

Now, if that is what we want, I can absolutely live with that, but I think the situation with hulls need to be clarified. Right now I think it is too confusing.

It's always more advantageous for an advanced culture to build down, than it is for a lower tech to build up. That's largely why airliners are built out of aluminum, and not carbon fiber composites....

Aluminum is a lower tech material, more abundant at our tech level, so it's cheaper...while carbon fiber is lighter, and stronger in many ways...it just costs more to build with.

we can build with carbon fiber rather nicely, but we haven't been working with it long enough to learn all the little tricks we have have learned to do with aluminum..(fewer upgrades and advantages and a few real disadvantages..such as sometimes the composites are flawed, or they break down due to improper manufacture.

And realistically, Building up will not always give a desirable result..depending on the role of the item you are building. There are definite break points in the tech level scheme. falling into one of those gaps leads to that odd fact you explained.

At TL 12 you can build up to 14, and gain access to new materials. But at nine you have fewer new materials to use by building up to 11. Most of the advantages are gained in systems, not the hull itself. In reality it's just a fancy metal box.What makes a TL-11 ship more advantageous than a TL-9 is what you put IN the box. Especially in those odd tech levels when there is a gap in major improvements.

 

[Dracous]

I don't mind that. The problem is in game terms building a prototype hull is has no advantage to account for the disadvantage. I can build that TL11 hull at the TL9 Spaceport, but it does not allow me to do anything that could not be done with a TL6, 7, 8 or 9 hull. Building a hull with advanced materials is a huge disadvantage.

I can live with that as an oddity in the rules.

I think that my main issue is that it is not cleanly indicated in the rules that we need to treat hulls a little differently on the tech table than how we treat any other component. I think some explanatory text may clear it up. Something like the following.

"Because a the tech level of a spacecraft hull is a dependent on the TL of the world it is built on, and because the attributes of the hull do no change when built at that tech level, the advantage/disadvantage table reflects what happens when we attempt to build different tech level hulls at the same yard, on a world that does not have access to the default TL12 materials for ship building. So an isolated Tech level 10 world can build Tech level 9 hulls, and can do so to gain 1 advantage, or also can build TL11 hulls, and gain 1 disadvantage."

 

[Infojunky]

Let me step in here....

In days gone by where there were two equally valid ship construction systems Book 2 and Book 5, book 2 ships build with standard drives had agreed upon median tech level of 12 and ships designed with Book5 where limited by their tech level availability. (Book 2 tech level limits did exist but they were different from book 5 in that which letter coded drive was available by tech level without respect to performance mostly)

Any how that is the history.

Since you know the specs of what a TL9 ship should look like generally 1g Jump1 wing it from there, the scraping bottom edge of Starship Tech has always been an issue with the rules sets.

 

[Dracous]

Thanks for stepping in Infojunky. While I agree that I can just make it up, I think since we are in playtest, we can go just a little bit further and have the rules adjusted to clearly articulate what happens when we construct hulls on different TL worlds.

 

[wbnc]

I don't mind that. The problem is in game terms building a prototype hull is has no advantage to account for the disadvantage. I can build that TL11 hull at the TL9 Spaceport, but it does not allow me to do anything that could not be done with a TL6, 7, 8 or 9 hull. Building a hull with advanced materials is a huge disadvantage.

I can live with that as an oddity in the rules.

I think that my main issue is that it is not cleanly indicated in the rules that we need to treat hulls a little differently on the tech table than how we treat any other component. I think some explanatory text may clear it up. Something like the following.

"Because a the tech level of a spacecraft hull is a dependent on the TL of the world it is built on, and because the attributes of the hull do no change when built at that tech level, the advantage/disadvantage table reflects what happens when we attempt to build different tech level hulls at the same yard, on a world that does not have access to the default TL12 materials for ship building. So an isolated Tech level 10 world can build Tech level 9 hulls, and can do so to gain 1 advantage, or also can build TL11 hulls, and gain 1 disadvantage."

Okay I can see what you are saying. And yeah the explanation would help a bit.

 

[Chas]

What also seems to be missing is a clear indication of what you can and cannot do with having a hull of a TL below whatever components you are trying to put in the ship itself.

 

[MongooseMatt]

TL-12 is only stated as the Norm because that is the standard Tech Level across the third Imperium. If you have a plannet that is isolated and doesn't have access to more advanced parts they are going to have to rely on their own TL-9 stuff.

Yes, this - it is not really a hard rule, more a suggestion (and it is also meant to indicate that higher TL shipyards may build lower, rather than ruling out lower TL shipyards altogether).

 

[phavoc]

An underlying issue with TL of shipyards is that they aren't necessarily connected to the TL of the planet they are on (or in orbit). So unless we want to start calling out the TL of planetary facilities I guess it's safe to assume any IMPERIAL starport is an average of TL-12, unless the planet's TL is greater, which in that case the shipyard is the same TL as the planet.

It's not that big of a deal to import higher TL parts to build things. Commerce keeps the spaceways flowing yanno...

 

[Dracous]

With the level of trade that exists in the Third Imperium it is reasonable to make that assumption. My campaign is not set in the imperium, so the same ideas do not apply.

I have also run a First Interstellar War scenario, where the plucky Terrans do not have access to tech higher than level 9. It's great fun to play the low tech underdog squeezing everything they can out of there technology base in order to survive.

Traveller should be designed to support all types of campaigns, not just ones based in year 1105 of the Third Imperium. I think this version does that. It just need some polishing