TL15/16 Ship Designs - Final Attempt - Off Topic Thread

[Solomani666]

The Traveller ship building rules are for building IMPERIAL ships.

These ships are limited in the following ways:

1. They use lowest bid contractors. (i.e. cheapest designs possible.)
2. Use 'off the shelf' parts.
3. Are generally an overall TL12 design despite its possible TL15 meson cannon and shields.

So the question remains. What rule modifications would you suggest for a civilization that builds TL15/16 ships that:

1. Use the very highest quality contractors with the best designs possible.
2. Use the best custom parts and components.
3. Are of a PURE TL15/16 design.

Yes, this will require a modification of the rules as stated.

Feel free to post comments having nothing to do with to the thread topic.

I am also creating an "On Topic Thread" for those people who have the intelligence to posting comments having some relevance to the question asked.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=655814#655814


If you still intend to answer this post with "But the rules say..." then this thread is for you.

 

[AndrewW]

1. They use lowest bid contractors. (i.e. cheapest designs possible.)
2. Use 'off the shelf' parts.
3. Are generally an overall TL12 design despite its possible TL15 meson cannon and shields.

I disagree, it's all up to the one designing the ship. Take the Dragon in Signs & Portents #84 this is an Imperial ship but uses a lot of technology >12 and it isn't exactly cheap.

 

[FreeTrav]

I am also creating an "On Topic Thread" for those people who have the intelligence to posting comments having some relevance to the question asked.

Posting comments phrased like this, whether with emoticons attached or not, is most emphatically not the way to endear yourself to the other members of this forum. Following up this way after vandalizing the threads you started because you didn't like what other people posted to them only compounds the error.

This is the only time I will attempt to teach you basic forum courtesy. I will ignore any replies about it; I have said what I feel needs to be said.

 

[Solomani666]

1. They use lowest bid contractors. (i.e. cheapest designs possible.)
2. Use 'off the shelf' parts.
3. Are generally an overall TL12 design despite its possible TL15 meson cannon and shields.

I disagree, it's all up to the one designing the ship. Take the Dragon in Signs & Portents #84 this is an Imperial ship but uses a lot of technology >12 and it isn't exactly cheap.

High Guard (Page 52)
The Traveller core rulebook gives rules for building spacecraft as
they are built in most shipyards across the Imperium – a mix of
common off–the–shelf components, lowest–contractor–offer hulls,
and electronics imported from high–tech or industrial worlds across
the subsector. The overall tech level of the resulting spacecraft is
roughly TL12, regardless of where it was built.

 

[AndrewW]

1. They use lowest bid contractors. (i.e. cheapest designs possible.)
2. Use 'off the shelf' parts.
3. Are generally an overall TL12 design despite its possible TL15 meson cannon and shields.

I disagree, it's all up to the one designing the ship. Take the Dragon in Signs & Portents #84 this is an Imperial ship but uses a lot of technology >12 and it isn't exactly cheap.

High Guard (Page 52)
The Traveller core rulebook gives rules for building spacecraft as
they are built in most shipyards across the Imperium – a mix of
common off–the–shelf components, lowest–contractor–offer hulls,
and electronics imported from high–tech or industrial worlds across
the subsector. The overall tech level of the resulting spacecraft is
roughly TL12, regardless of where it was built.

Doesn't really say that's the only option. I see no reason that has to mean all spaceships built are roughly TL12.

 

[Beastttt]

If you are wanting the best ships possible built,the rules allow for that
you just need to follow the rules to get that

the Imperium ships are just as space worthy as your pocket empire
the difference is your pocket empire ships are more robust and lavish and you need to pay for for that

there is a minimum requirement for ships no matter
your pocket empire is just buying way above the minimum and getting those extras

 

[locarno24]

Where does it say that? I failed to find any reference to bidders or any such mention of outside contractors in the Traveller Book. I think you might be confusing the Traveller universe with the (so called) 'real world'.

It doesn't in the core rulebook - What High Guard says is that it's assumed that ships built using only core rules are TL12 where not explicitely stated otherwise - for example your 1 structure/1 hull per 50 dTons.

That is what happens if you build a ship with the rules in just the core rulebook.

High Guard added (in a section that the quote above is the preface to) the option for higher TL hulls (which includes cost and toughness modifiers), along with rules for higher TL versions of drives from the starting chart (higher performance drives not available until a certain TL, lower performance ones get more compact but more expensive, etc).

The rules immediately following the quote given in High Guard are the rules for higher tech ships (i.e. vessels which are not an average of TL12, as with most Imperial Navy vessels - which, according to the example give, are usually built at TL14), along with the addition of other ship options elsewhere in High Guard such as reinforced hull and structure, armoured bulkheads, etc, which represent a style of design rather than a level of technology.

Which is why I think a lot of the readers don't quite get what is being asked for.

 

[atpollard]

Moved from ON-TOPIC thread for Off-Topic question:

I may bend the rules a little by building a dreadnought with duel PP's and duel spinal mount meson cannons. I can't think of any reason that a highly advanced race could not acheive this. Heck, they even did it in Starblazers.

I looked up some ships from Starblazers.
What ship has dual spinal mounts?
(I only saw one spinal mount.)

 

[Solomani666]

See, this was why I liked the FF&S: Naval Architecture idea. With a big enough ship, you could build in several of these large guns without necessarily making them spinal mounts - a ship the size of Dahak could have batteries of secondary guns each powerful enough to intimidate a Tigress... and you really don't want to think about what primaries could do.

Grandfather help any system in which two of these behemoths clash...

Nothing in FF&S looks fun. It looks like homework.

 

[Solomani666]

Moved from ON-TOPIC thread for Off-Topic question:

I may bend the rules a little by building a dreadnought with duel PP's and duel spinal mount meson cannons. I can't think of any reason that a highly advanced race could not acheive this. Heck, they even did it in Starblazers.

I looked up some ships from Starblazers.
What ship has dual spinal mounts?
(I only saw one spinal mount.)

 

[Beastttt]

that can also be just the look
if the rules allow for 2 spinal mounts ok
if not then it is just special effects

from all the comics cartoons,tv shows and movies that a ship had a spinal mount weapon
it was meant to be fired at 1 target or a shotgun blast to take out an area
even the from Star Blazer you have posted could only shoot as a shotgun against 1 area
you might get away with 2 if there was a reload time greater than once per turn

Moved from ON-TOPIC thread for Off-Topic question:

I may bend the rules a little by building a dreadnought with duel PP's and duel spinal mount meson cannons. I can't think of any reason that a highly advanced race could not acheive this. Heck, they even did it in Starblazers.

I looked up some ships from Starblazers.
What ship has dual spinal mounts?
(I only saw one spinal mount.)

 

[Solomani666]

that can also be just the look
if the rules allow for 2 spinal mounts ok
if not then it is just special effects

from all the comics cartoons,tv shows and movies that a ship had a spinal mount weapon
it was meant to be fired at 1 target or a shotgun blast to take out an area
even the from Star Blazer you have posted could only shoot as a shotgun against 1 area
you might get away with 2 if there was a reload time greater than once per turn

Moved from ON-TOPIC thread for Off-Topic question:



I looked up some ships from Starblazers.
What ship has dual spinal mounts?
(I only saw one spinal mount.)

No, given enough time to charge it could fire both spinal mounts at a single target.

Have you even watched Star Blazers?

 

[Beastttt]

yes back in the late 70's

no the point about having 2 spinal mounts is that if you had to wait a turn between each shot having 2 would allow you to fire 1 per turn

the big thing about spinal mounts is that they must be aimed at the target by aiming the ship at the target(limited arc of fire)
they are also pretty much run the length of the ship(spine=keel of ship)

did that ship ever fire at 2 seperate targets at the same time?

 

[atpollard]

High Guard (Page 52)
The Traveller core rulebook gives rules for building spacecraft as they are built in most shipyards across the Imperium – a mix of common off–the–shelf components, lowest–contractor–offer hulls, and electronics imported from high–tech or industrial worlds across the subsector. The overall tech level of the resulting spacecraft is roughly TL12, regardless of where it was built.

These ships are limited in the following ways:
1. They use lowest bid contractors. (i.e. cheapest designs possible.)
2. Use 'off the shelf' parts.
3. Are generally an overall TL12 design despite its possible TL15 meson cannon and shields.

For the record, I think that this section of the rules is being painted in an undeserved negative light:

1. “lowest–contractor–offer” does not necessarily mean inferior quality. It simply means the lowest price. No more and no less. A mineral-poor, low population world imports rare earth metals to manufacture TL 12 power plants – but due to increased labor and material costs, the Power Plants cost 10% more than average. An average world (no trade codes) manufactures TL 12 power plants at the average market price. An Industrial world located within Jump 2 of three worlds with class A starports manufactures TL 12 power plants, however due to economies of scale and an extensive infrastructure (subsidized by local navy shipyards) they achieve economies of scale allowing them to produce PP at 10% below the average cost. None of the PP produced on these three worlds are inherently superior or inferior to those of any other world. They simply have different prices due to different local conditions.

Page 52 simply claims that the ships designed in the core book use the lowest price parts available. You could specify that you want your ship built on a shipyard where labor unions drive up wages and that will gain you a more expensive ship, but nothing stated or implied suggest that it will be better just because it is more expensive.

2. “common off–the–shelf components” simply means that the TL 12 PP-B installed in your ship is of a standard design available anywhere and purchased at the 10% discount for standard designs. You could specify that you want a TL 12 PP-B that is specially built and one of a kind. It will perform identical to the tried and true workhorse PP-B in use for over 500 years, only it will not be entitled to the 10% discount (since it is a non-standard design) and at the annual maintenance, parts will need to be custom fabricated for it. For my money, give me the standard design (just like the ships designed with the Core Book).

3. “ The overall tech level of the resulting spacecraft is roughly TL12, regardless of where it was built.” Simply means that a TL 10 class A shipyard will import TL 12 Power Plants from a nearby TL 12 Class C starport rather than use local TL 10 Power Plants that are 25% larger than the TL 12 Standard PPs. Thus an examination of the TL adjustment tables in HG will reveal the optimum TL to produce any given component at the lowest cost. Some items can be made smaller at higher TLs, but only at an increased cost to manufacture. The Core Book components have been selected for maximum availability at the minimum cost with a resulting Average TL of 12. Average just means average. It does not mean minimum and it does not mean maximum and it does not even mean actual, just the average TL of all common components. Military ships can be, and often are, designed to take advantage of higher TLs – as detailed in High Guard.