TL 15 Ship controls

[rust]

To use the example of the gunner, he would not imagine to operate his
turret (the physical activities he would do without the system), he would
concentrate on the target and imagine that it explodes - everything else,
the actual operation of the turret, would be done by the system.

 

[Rick]

Given that the technology for this is in the early stages of development now (TL 8?) - wouldn't we see a system in use before TL 15? I would imagine that this system could come in around TL 13, by 15 I would expect to see a more complete direct neural interface (more cyberpunkish, I suppose).

Second thing I thought of - wouldn't the system have to be recalibrated between users? Given that each of us have distinctly different brains and the impulses sent to do a task would be different for each user?

 

[rust]

Given that the technology for this is in the early stages of development now (TL 8?) - wouldn't we see a system in use before TL 15? I would imagine that this system could come in around TL 13, by 15 I would expect to see a more complete direct neural interface (more cyberpunkish, I suppose).

Given the speed of the development of the technology during the last few
years, I would not be surprised to see a fully functional system within a
decade or two. Even invasive systems (the cyperpunk type) are already
in existence, for example a famous one is used to enable blind people to
see through a combination of a microscopic camera and a small brain im-
plant.

Second thing I thought of - wouldn't the system have to be recalibrated between users? Given that each of us have distinctly different brains and the impulses sent to do a task would be different for each user?

Yes, the system almost certainly would have to be "trained" by each user,
similar to one of today's speech recognition systems.

 

[DFW]

Given that the technology for this is in the early stages of development now (TL 8?) - wouldn't we see a system in use before TL 15? I would imagine that this system could come in around TL 13, by 15 I would expect to see a more complete direct neural interface (more cyberpunkish, I suppose).

Yes, but if we are going to use logic I'd have to rewrite a TON of the current rule set.

Second thing I thought of - wouldn't the system have to be recalibrated between users? Given that each of us have distinctly different brains and the impulses sent to do a task would be different for each user?

Yes, that is in the rule I wrote. Users store their profiles in portable media.

 

[Rick]

Given that the technology for this is in the early stages of development now (TL 8?) - wouldn't we see a system in use before TL 15? I would imagine that this system could come in around TL 13, by 15 I would expect to see a more complete direct neural interface (more cyberpunkish, I suppose).

Yes, but if we are going to use logic I'd have to rewrite a TON of the current rule set.

Second thing I thought of - wouldn't the system have to be recalibrated between users? Given that each of us have distinctly different brains and the impulses sent to do a task would be different for each user?

Yes, that is in the rule I wrote. Users store their profiles in portable media.

Ok - if the tech is available before TL15 - perhaps you need to add a 'wrinkle' to make it unusable before that TL - maybe a feedback loop to make the user aware of damage/maintenance issues causes memory loss/minor brain damage at TL 13-14, but this has been sorted by 15? :lol: Possibly add in a social prejudice against using it - maybe it sounds too much like Zhodani thought control for it to be accepted in parts of the Imperium? :twisted:

 

[rust]

Possibly add in a social prejudice against using it - maybe it sounds too much like Zhodani thought control for it to be accepted in parts of the Imperium? :twisted:

This could well be, it would indeed look very much like the Zhodani way
of operating simple devices with psionics. On the other hand, this could
also help to spread the technology - "Look, we can do this as well as the
Zhodani, but without their dangerous brain malfunction."

 

[Solomani666]

I am talking about neural pathways that guide coordination. If you are familiar with shooting a free throw basketball you can actually 'Practice' by imagining yourself to throw free throws. I have actually done this and it works.

Yes, I see what you are saying. No, this uses a different area of the brain. I've used a proto-type and it definitely uses different pathways, unrelated to physical control of the body. Higher IQ types were quicker at control than athletic types.

Maybe to learn the apparatus, but IQ still does not help you to master actual dexterity related skill you wish to accomplish.

Using the previous gunner example, two people with equal mastery of the device, both Turrets-0, one with an Int of 15 the other with a Dex of 15, the person with the Dex of 15 will be better almost every time.


Something similar is being tested with some US pilots now. Even if the planes were being controlled remotely and the pilot was below average intelligence, your chances of beating him in a dog fight still approach zero.

.
.

 

[DFW]

Maybe to learn the apparatus, but IQ still does not help you to master actual dexterity related skill you wish to accomplish.

It isn't a dex based skill.

Using the previous gunner example, two people with equal mastery of the device, both Turrets-0, one with an Int of 15 the other with a Dex of 15, the person with the Dex of 15 will be better almost every time.

Sorry, it has already been demonstrated to NOT be the case in fact. I don't know what to say other than you have no experience or knowledge with the device....

 

[Solomani666]

Sorry, it has already been demonstrated to NOT be the case in fact. I don't know what to say other than you have no experience or knowledge with the device....

"The Device"... My point exactly...

.

 

[Solomani666]

So please describe how turret gunnery would work with this apparatus?

.

 

[DFW]

So please describe how turret gunnery would work with this apparatus?

.

You picture the correct setting & the target being hit by the weapon in the correct part of space.

 

[Solomani666]

So please describe how turret gunnery would work with this apparatus?

.

You picture the correct setting & the target being hit by the weapon in the correct part of space.

Are you saying that Int will trump Dex given even gunnery skill and skill with the interface?

.

 

[far-trader]

So please describe how turret gunnery would work with this apparatus?

.

You picture the correct setting & the target being hit by the weapon in the correct part of space.

Are you saying that Int will trump Dex given even gunnery skill and skill with the interface?

.

Applying Dex to turret gunnery skill makes about as much sense as saying Str applies to flying skill a modern fly-by-wire jumbo jet. Just because one used to man handle the yoke on a jumbo jet like gunnery crews used to manually crank the elevation gears on field artillery it makes no more sense that a starship gunner manually cranks and sights his weapon than the starship pilot has to force the helm over by brute strength and the navigator computes the jump with an astrolabe and abacus or slide-rule...

...even without the fancy hair-net and electric suit

 

[phavoc]

So please describe how turret gunnery would work with this apparatus?

.

You picture the correct setting & the target being hit by the weapon in the correct part of space.

Are you saying that Int will trump Dex given even gunnery skill and skill with the interface?

.

For starships, moving 1,000s of meter per second, I don't think ANY Dex roll is going to make a difference. Gunners are trying to predict WHERE their target is going to be when the beam/pebble hits them. And at the speed/distance of starship fights, its all about intelligence.

I doubt most ships would be doing much combat within visual range - and unless you can see your target with the Mk1 eyeball... all the DEX in the world ain't gonna help you shootin what is basically in the dark.

 

[Solomani666]

You picture the correct setting & the target being hit by the weapon in the correct part of space.

Are you saying that Int will trump Dex given even gunnery skill and skill with the interface?

.

For starships, moving 1,000s of meter per second, I don't think ANY Dex roll is going to make a difference. Gunners are trying to predict WHERE their target is going to be when the beam/pebble hits them. And at the speed/distance of starship fights, its all about intelligence.

I doubt most ships would be doing much combat within visual range - and unless you can see your target with the Mk1 eyeball... all the DEX in the world ain't gonna help you shootin what is basically in the dark.

That's the entire point of targeting computers, gunnery skill, and ships sensors.

.

 

[locarno24]

Yes - however that's more because traveller combat is a bit movie-esque.

Where you have a 'not the escape for the death star honest' scene with Bloke Moonwalker and Hans Olo manning turrets like they've been shoved into a B-17, DEX is all important.

Where you're talking about 6-minute volleys of fire over light-seconds, DEX is a lot less important if you're really honest with what it'd actually be like (more like the Surface Warfare officer on a modern destroyer). DEX is going to allow you to press the 'fire' button awefully gracefully but that won't really affect things.

That said, back to Traveller, where physics is what we say it is....

I'm not sure about the idea - I mean obviously a neural control interface is a good one (and given the Neural Comm, clearly something which can exist), but I'd personnally make it an addition to physical controls rather than replacing them, if you understand me. Adding control mechanisms is a good way to make up for complexity - some modern fighters, for example, use voice control to supplement and simplify swathes of switches.

As long as the pysical backup is there (and I would imagine it would be out of simple common sense), I'd go with a choice of INT or DEX - that allows the crewman to control the systems in whatever manner is fastest and most efficient for him - which is, after all, the whole point of high TL upgrades.

If you really want to go all out, I suppose the next step up from that is a full immersion bridge - something like a chair from The Matrix - which takes your neural reader, a holographic bridge and the intelligent interface software to its ultimate allowing you to view any part of the ship from any angle, zip into the body of a repair robot or probe, directly interface with expert software, man the guns Legend of the Rangers fashion, etc, etc - effectively converting the crew into AIs for the purpose of running the ship.

 

[Rick]

Possibly add in a social prejudice against using it - maybe it sounds too much like Zhodani thought control for it to be accepted in parts of the Imperium? :twisted:

This could well be, it would indeed look very much like the Zhodani way
of operating simple devices with psionics. On the other hand, this could
also help to spread the technology - "Look, we can do this as well as the
Zhodani, but without their dangerous brain malfunction."

You'd probably get both - thinking about the difference in reporting styles in present day newspapers - you could have completely different views:

"Important breakthrough made by Imperial research teams to provide faster, more efficient starship control"

"Renegade Scientists are trying to turn you into Zhodani mind slaves - see page 14 for how to block this with tinfoil!"

Could be amusing, lol!

 

[DFW]

Just because one used to man handle the yoke on a jumbo jet like gunnery crews used to manually crank the elevation gears on field artillery it makes no more sense that a starship gunner manually cranks and sights his weapon than the starship pilot has to force the helm over by brute strength and the navigator computes the jump with an astrolabe and abacus or slide-rule...

...even without the fancy hair-net and electric suit

My players have their characters get to one side of the ship to help it turn real sharp. Ya know, to help it heel over during those high G turns. :lol:

 

[rust]

My players have their characters get to one side of the ship to help it turn real sharp. Ya know, to help it heel over during those high G turns. :lol:

I know that problem well, one of my starships capsized and sank when all
the passengers suddenly ran to starboard to stare at Saturn's rings.