Tiny cabins for Traveller

phavoc

Emperor Mongoose
Airbus is looking in to making small sleeping-cubbies for coach passengers on long flights. If your recall from the Fifth Element, passengers rode in small compartments similar to this, though they did so unconsciously. There are small hotels in Japan that have a similar, though a roomier mix.

It's like the old sleeping compartments on overnight rail travel where you could buy a bunk.

https://www.yahoo.com/travel/airlines-want-you-to-sleep-but-in-a-tiny-box-135730256.html
 
Coffin hotels. They'd be something like a half ton each. Pack six, not eight, into a single stateroom's space and leave two dt capacity free in each stateroom for passengers to move about. That 2dt could be taken up by a communal shower unit / fresher, with food prep facilities in the common area and laundry facilities elsewhere in the ship, possibly closer to Engineering.
 
The Coffin Hotels show up quite often in the Cyberpunk themes stories and RPGs. Gibson had them not only at airports but in downtown areas. Offered a cheep way to go. Also if you are looking for small living spaces Google "Hong Kong small apartments" it is amazing how small some of them really are. Family of four in space smaller than my son's bedroom. :shock:
 
Small Cabins are in HG under the Small Craft rules. Alternately, you could say that is was a variation of the Barracks (also in HG).

I would think it would be OK for a couple of days (in-system trip), but I don't know that it would be commercially viable in Jump travel, but what do I know.

ALSO, in MGT2, you can have up to 4 people crammed into a stateroom (Steerage). This might be a way to look at a purpose-built Steerage cabin...
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
Small Cabins are in HG under the Small Craft rules. Alternately, you could say that is was a variation of the Barracks (also in HG).

Since they could lay down probably more like acceleration couches.
 
I'd second the acceleration couch Idea.

If you want them to be like the sleeper beds from Fifth element. Make them low berths with no chance of frost-burn...no cryo capacity, just a nice relaxing nap as you sleep away a boring two week jump.
 
One problem packing more people into the same space on a Traveller starship means you're taxing a life support system meant originally for one or two but then they compensate with extra life support and the subsequent higher traveling fee. Packing six people to a room shout seriously stress the system and the cost for a heavy duty life support and provisions should make it actually more expensive per person. The design process has always been 1 or 2 for 4 dtons optimal which assumes a few thousand years of testing over thousands of systems.

If you try to cheat with using Barracks with a different name, read the rest of the barracks passage. They are meant for troops used to less than comfortable amenities OR for prisoners and colonist (who plan to NEVER do that again!).

Comparing them with hotel coffins is very stretched. Those accommodations are not in confined controlled environments. Patrons can come and go as they please away from those tiny holes. Starship passengers have nowhere else beyond The Walls for over a week. That's asking for trouble.
 
Reynard said:
One problem packing more people into the same space on a Traveller starship means you're taxing a life support system meant originally for one or two but then they compensate with extra life support and the subsequent higher traveling fee. Packing six people to a room shout seriously stress the system and the cost for a heavy duty life support and provisions should make it actually more expensive per person. The design process has always been 1 or 2 for 4 dtons optimal which assumes a few thousand years of testing over thousands of systems.

If you try to cheat with using Barracks with a different name, read the rest of the barracks passage. They are meant for troops used to less than comfortable amenities OR for prisoners and colonist (who plan to NEVER do that again!).

Comparing them with hotel coffins is very stretched. Those accommodations are not in confined controlled environments. Patrons can come and go as they please away from those tiny holes. Starship passengers have nowhere else beyond The Walls for over a week. That's asking for trouble.

0.5 tons designated for an acceleration couch is 7 cubic meters...a compact car is 2.8 cubic meters in size. a space four people can set comfortably in.so it seems there is a lot of extra ship volume taken up for things other than a reinforced chair..

The extra volume left over from the 0.5 tons is enough to include basic life support for one person, plus food, and water for two weeks.
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/lifesupport.php

now if you want to account for some room to stretch your legs, you can buy one stateroom as a central area with a couple of couches, a video system and fresher. then place 4 to six sleeping berths around it

6 x.0.5 = 3 Tons
plus 4 tons per common area...= 7 displacement tons.

or designate 1 ton "luxuries" as a small sitting room.and fresher for the cubes inhabitants.

6 passengers in Berths, for 7 tons= 1.1 tons per passenger

2 people in staterooms for 4 tons. = 2 tons per passenger

by using berths instead of staterooms you basically double the number of passengers a ship can carry. that's for a ship that has the extra tonnage for a full stateroom as a lounge. you can call this economy class.

with just one ton for a fresher and small cube area to get in and out of your berth in...4 tons total. you triple your passenger capacity...and could call it Steerage class.
 
Epicenter said:
Shall we start talking about the fast drug and the economic impacts thereof?

You can pack them in 4 to a ton with that. Tuck them in, give them the shot, and cruise without the need of stewards, freshers, or in flight movies. Pretty much hat they did in Fifth Element only they used an electronic "fast field"

Just the thing for starship crews, they don't have to worry about complaints, security issues, or rowdy passengers. Who just discovered the meals consist of Military MREs all of them Chicken A la King.( oh lord just remembering those things make me throw up a little)

You could even mount the cubes on wheeled modules. Have the star port medics prep them, roll the module into the ship. cruise to the destination...roll the module back out, have the medic wake em up. presto..bulk low cost star travel for the masses. "A New Home awaits you in the Colonies"

ell ya the truth last time I traveled by AMtrack I'd have wept for joy when they passed out the fast drug...
 
wbnc said:
Epicenter said:
Shall we start talking about the fast drug and the economic impacts thereof?

You can pack them in 4 to a ton with that. Tuck them in, give them the shot, and cruise without the need of stewards, freshers, or in flight movies. Pretty much hat they did in Fifth Element only they used an electronic "fast field"

Just the thing for starship crews, they don't have to worry about complaints, security issues, or rowdy passengers. Who just discovered the meals consist of Military MREs all of them Chicken A la King.( oh lord just remembering those things make me throw up a little)

You could even mount the cubes on wheeled modules. Have the star port medics prep them, roll the module into the ship. cruise to the destination...roll the module back out, have the medic wake em up. presto..bulk low cost star travel for the masses. "A New Home awaits you in the Colonies"

ell ya the truth last time I traveled by AMtrack I'd have wept for joy when they passed out the fast drug...
So I read this I can't help asking, isn't this what Low Berth is? As you say " Tuck them in, give them the shot, and cruise without the need of stewards, freshers, or in flight movies." I mean what you guys are doing is just giving Low Berth a different flavor, but it is the same to me. Tuck them in, freeze them solid, and cruise without the need of stewards, freshers, or in flight movies.
 
I've used the idea before for long distance intra system travel. Too near to jump and even with Man-5 it took days to get there. In a small crafts cargo bay I installed a self contained module that slept 4, visually very similar to stacked coffin hotels. It's just a bed with more privacy, a few hours to yourself when crammed into a space too small to swing a cat. I didn't add anything to the cost of travel, it was subsumed within the cost of intra system transport. I didn't price them to include in a ship design, just put them there as a detail on the journey.
 
phavoc said:
Airbus is looking in to making small sleeping-cubbies for coach passengers on long flights.

That's annoying - I had this idea a few years ago for long haul flights.

Mind you, my idea also involved the cubbies shooting out of the plane with parachutes attached in the event of disaster. But the idea was there!
 
-Daniel- said:
So I read this I can't help asking, isn't this what Low Berth is? As you say " Tuck them in, give them the shot, and cruise without the need of stewards, freshers, or in flight movies."

That's exactly the problem. It's been a problem in Traveller for a long while.

Simply put, Fast Drug would open the gates to modern-day style "coach-class" interstellar travel. They would combine a lot of the benefits of Low Berths without that pesky problem of "dying when they try and revive you" thing which is another heinous leftover of Traveller's 1976 roots. Mind you I call it heinous because it doesn't feel very Traveller - Fast Drug would work perfectly fine in a more 'transhuman' style sci-fi game -- the writers of Traveller have never really thought of the implications of this stuff, which is understandable, but they've never updated their game in future editions to reflect the implications of this stuff either, which is bad. It's like a software company being aware of a bug but not fixing it.

There are differences of course, Fast Drug users still require life support, just very, very little (as opposed to just a bit of electrical power to power the berth for Low Berths). (You'd think that with the metabolism slowed drastically you'd probably need to leave them in a room heated to human body temperature but even if you did, it's still a small cost compared to normal life support.) Amusingly Fast Drug becomes available at TL9 and Cold Berths at TL11 (iirc).

Even if you go by the rather arbitrary dosage and antidote formula in the rules it's still less than half of the cost of a middle passage. If you start allowing for fractional doses (the standard dose is basically two months), say, a dose for a week costing 250Cr or something, it becomes even more economical (and there's no reason not to - there is no health risk associated with using the antidote, which means they can bring you out sooner without ill effect or just reduce the dosage). Really, you should be seeing the Fast Drug everywhere in Traveller:

Space Suits: Get stranded in space? Pull the tab which injects you with a sleeping drug and a dose of the Fast Drug and turns on an emergency beacon and hope for the best. It'll make the oxygen supply on a suit last much longer when you're using it at 1/60th of the rate (that two hour oxygen supply now lasts five days). This should be required by law in Traveller.

Life Support Limited Situations in General: In fact, it works pretty well in any situation where there is life support but things like food, water, and oxygen will run out. It requires no fiddly preparation or heavy/bulky/expensive equipment unlike low berths. It's available at TL9! Just pop a pill or inject or whatever they do. Guys in mining work would carry a dose of Fast Drug on them. So would crew on submarines. Lifeboats. Probably all kinds of situations I haven't thought of. Of course chances of survival might be slim in these situations but any increased chance of survival is good for such people.

Travel: Fast Drug would be more common than Dranamine, even on terrestrial trips especially if it's possible to formulate a version that isn't as good as the standard 1:60 Fast Drug but is cheaper; 12 hour airplane flights would feel like 15 minutes (or even an hour for that matter) and they wouldn't need to put toilets in the plane anymore. Passengers could be kept in pretty cramped conditions (like modern coach on cheap airlines) pretty much indefinitely. Passage for interstellar trips should be a lot cheaper (because you can pack in a ton of passengers and they don't require much) and look more like airline travel today.

Economic Depression: It's entirely possible they might have unemployed segments of the population voluntarily go into fast drug stupor until economic conditions improve in return for being exempt from taxes and possibly the government paying for rent or something. This isn't totally Rip Van Winkle - you're still aware while you're in Fast Drug - provided they run special news summaries at 1/60th the speed, you can keep up on current events for when you wake up.

The Fast Drug I think the best reason why Cold Berths rules should be modified to eliminate the chance of death upon revival provided the person is put into the cold berth by a properly trained technician or provided they have time to use expert system terminal or whatever - I'm fine for a chance of death when using an EMERGENCY low berth since that kind of thing is you just stumble into the low berth and turn it on. But normal low berths where you have like a few hours to strip down, let the expert system analyze your blood or whatever and then give you the correct dosages or whatever? Revival should be 100% safe. Then we could also eliminate the Fast Drug, which is a little silly (IMO).

wbnc said:
Who just discovered the meals consist of Military MREs all of them Chicken A la King.( oh lord just remembering those things make me throw up a little)

Oh, if we're talking about that era of MREs, nothing was worse than the ham slice. Though admittedly, the ham slice was more useful than Chicken a la King. After all, the Ham Slice could be used to replace the inserts in your ballistic vest, retreading your boots, patching holes in tires. Possibly even as applique armor for vehicles against RPGs. But not as food.
 
Epicenter said:
That's exactly the problem. It's been a problem in Traveller for a long while.

Simply put, Fast Drug would open the gates to modern-day style "coach-class" interstellar travel. They would combine a lot of the benefits of Low Berths without that pesky problem of "dying when they try and revive you" thing which is another heinous leftover of Traveller's 1976 roots. Mind you I call it heinous because it doesn't feel very Traveller - Fast Drug would work perfectly fine in a more 'transhuman' style sci-fi game -- the writers of Traveller have never really thought of the implications of this stuff, which is understandable, but they've never updated their game in future editions to reflect the implications of this stuff either, which is bad. It's like a software company being aware of a bug but not fixing it.

There are differences of course, Fast Drug users still require life support, just very, very little (as opposed to just a bit of electrical power to power the berth for Low Berths). (You'd think that with the metabolism slowed drastically you'd probably need to leave them in a room heated to human body temperature but even if you did, it's still a small cost compared to normal life support.) Amusingly Fast Drug becomes available at TL9 and Cold Berths at TL11 (iirc).

Even if you go by the rather arbitrary dosage and antidote formula in the rules it's still less than half of the cost of a middle passage. If you start allowing for fractional doses (the standard dose is basically two months), say, a dose for a week costing 250Cr or something, it becomes even more economical (and there's no reason not to - there is no health risk associated with using the antidote, which means they can bring you out sooner without ill effect or just reduce the dosage). Really, you should be seeing the Fast Drug everywhere in Traveller:

Space Suits: Get stranded in space? Pull the tab which injects you with a sleeping drug and a dose of the Fast Drug and turns on an emergency beacon and hope for the best. It'll make the oxygen supply on a suit last much longer when you're using it at 1/60th of the rate (that two hour oxygen supply now lasts five days). This should be required by law in Traveller.

Life Support Limited Situations in General: In fact, it works pretty well in any situation where there is life support but things like food, water, and oxygen will run out. It requires no fiddly preparation or heavy/bulky/expensive equipment unlike low berths. It's available at TL9! Just pop a pill or inject or whatever they do. Guys in mining work would carry a dose of Fast Drug on them. So would crew on submarines. Lifeboats. Probably all kinds of situations I haven't thought of. Of course chances of survival might be slim in these situations but any increased chance of survival is good for such people.

Travel: Fast Drug would be more common than Dranamine, even on terrestrial trips especially if it's possible to formulate a version that isn't as good as the standard 1:60 Fast Drug but is cheaper; 12 hour airplane flights would feel like 15 minutes (or even an hour for that matter) and they wouldn't need to put toilets in the plane anymore. Passengers could be kept in pretty cramped conditions (like modern coach on cheap airlines) pretty much indefinitely. Passage for interstellar trips should be a lot cheaper (because you can pack in a ton of passengers and they don't require much) and look more like airline travel today.

Economic Depression: It's entirely possible they might have unemployed segments of the population voluntarily go into fast drug stupor until economic conditions improve in return for being exempt from taxes and possibly the government paying for rent or something.

The Fast Drug I think the best reason why Cold Berths rules should be modified to eliminate the chance of death upon revival provided the person is put into the cold berth by a properly trained technician. Then we could also eliminate the Fast Drug, which is a little silly (IMO).

wbnc said:
Who just discovered the meals consist of Military MREs all of them Chicken A la King.( oh lord just remembering those things make me throw up a little)

Oh, if we're talking about that era of MREs, nothing was worse than the ham slice. Though admittedly, the ham slice was more useful than Chicken a la King. After all, the Ham Slice could be used to replace the inserts in your ballistic vest, retreading your boots, patching holes in tires. Possibly even as applique armor for vehicles against RPGs. But not as food.

A few drawback added to the fast drugs would make it a bit less of a freebie. I hate to think of the cramps and pressure sores resulting from two weeks laying flat as a board, or setting in one position.

If ya jacked the TL of Fast, and introduced a less effective version, without the reduced O2 and liquids issue, it would still be worth it for travel uses. an IV drip, and a specially modified bed to reduce pressure sores etc... the extra volume of equipment still fits into the 0.5 ton for the unit, as well as enough O2 for two weeks.

bt yeah, with some clever usage of the concept of Fast, you could alter the general economy of travel radically. a 200 ton Far trader now becomes the equivalent of jump capable 747. Wanna really wreck the day of a hostile...load a 1000 ton merchant ship up with marines in fast cubes... the ship comes in looking like a cargo ship next thing ya know you have a battalion of marines storming your high port.

and Yeah, THAT generation of MREs...fortunately the Interstellar transport safety board has banned Ham Slice MRE on all commercial flights. A after someone sharpened one, and took out a set of battle dress by throwing it at the guy. Although I hear the Vargr swear by them as chew bones....
 
"Really, you should be seeing the Fast Drug everywhere in Traveller:"

And yet, after forty years and several editions of the game, the low berth with a chance of dying is still de facto and standard. Maybe there's more than finding ways to make everything much cheaper for the players.

We've gone through this before. Best guess at the moment is the law still says you cannot put more than two people in a stateroom and a stateroom still pays full life support because you don't seal the room to lower air, gravity and heat compared to the rest of the ship and you still need stewards because the passengers are still active and vulnerable. Low berth passengers are essentially cargo and death is not that common on regulated vessels with a medic. It's interesting Fast Drug is available at TL 10 but the antidote isn't available until TL 12! That means you can't rely on finding the antidote everywhere. And essentially the treatment actually cost 1100 credits if you don't want to sleep for two months plus the cost of the stateroom. A six parsec journey by low berth is far cheaper.

That's why Fast Drug isn't universal.
 
Also, they wanted to make sure Traveller characters stayed awake during Jump to do things such as make friends, Allies and Contacts, prevent hijacking attempts or actually attempt hijackings themselves.

Nothing's less fun than saying to the Travellers that they enter a cubby, Fast Drug is sprayed in their faces, and they wake up a few hours later with a new world waiting for them in the common room viewport. Where's the adventure?
 
msprange said:
phavoc said:
Airbus is looking in to making small sleeping-cubbies for coach passengers on long flights.

That's annoying - I had this idea a few years ago for long haul flights.

Mind you, my idea also involved the cubbies shooting out of the plane with parachutes attached in the event of disaster. But the idea was there!
I had the idea of having 20-ton modules for installation in ship's cargo holds, containing either four standard 4-ton staterooms and a 2-ton common area / independent life support system, or a whole lot of cubbies (32 of them, with a 2-ton common area and independent life support system.
 
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