third game and yet more questions

yann

Mongoose
well i played my 3rd game (5pt battle) as EA vs ISA. and i have some questions and comments.

i had: 2 marathon, 1 appollo strike, 4 chronos and 2 hyperion
he had: 3 white stars I, 2 WS gunships, some fighters, 4 blue stars and two narn raid ships...

i was on my way to getting plummeled before we had to stop. Is the earth fleet struggles versus ISA or was it jsut tactical mistakes (or unluck) on my part (the first two games i played centauri and trashed the ISA fleets)



once again the game took too long for us to finish but i assume it was because we have to look at a lot of rules:
so my questions are:

a) how long does a 5pt raid normaly takes? what about a 5pt battle?

b) is it normal that blue star survive so well or was it just bad luck on my part (it took fire 2, possibly 3, broadsides form EA battle level ship (being the only target there) and survived!

c) how do one deals with white stars efficiently.. it seems these thing never die... (or rather they take quite a beating before dying! it gets discouraging when you fire a crapload of weapons from half your fleet at one at it and it comes out to a total of -4dmg -3crew -2 speed...)
i figure next time i am going to concentrate more until i disable their weapons or destroy them!

d) do people play with fleet selection limitation to reduce the effectiveness of initiative sinks? that is one part of the game mechanic i have issues with.

e)i think initiative is very much too powerfull and i was proposing the following change: instead of rolling initiative once per turn you roll once for movment, once for figthers and once for firing. do you think it makes sense or that i should play the game some more before attempting to tweak it?
on average end it doesn't change anything but it makes it less likely to have a catastrophic turn because of initiative.

f) is the slingshot move (due to a gravity well) compulsory or voluntary?


finally i am going to get the following stuff before the shop closes, do you see any gapping holes in this selection?
the idea is to have decent fleets. i just want to have the basis covered.

fleets: crusade/psicorps/vorlons

Vorlon box
Vorlon hvy destroyer
crusade box
psi corp box
civilian box (to get another motehrship and some objectives)
poseidon supercarrier (the model is just too cool)
warlock
appollo
delphi
omega (or omega command i haven't decided)
2 hyperions
2 boxes of hermes transport (to be used as myrmidons possibly)
2 shadowcloacks
breching pods, firebolts and more thunderbolts

aslo i'll scratchbuild my hunters because i positively hate the current models and i'll make the shadow omega be usable both as a normal omega or a shadow omega (my magnetizing the spikes for exemple)
 
EA can face off against ISA but need to be a bit more specific in their fleet selections. Generally your advantages are fighters and range and you didn't really make the most of it in your fleet selections.

Take some Hermes (preferably four) - they are great initiative sinks and the potential for early-game crits is too useful to ignore. Omega Destroyers are far superior to Marathons in this matchup. The ISA ships will get behind you so rear firepower is essential. Add to that you get more Damage and more fighters and it's just a better ship vs. ISA. The Chronos Frigates are a decent choice (they don't rely on any particular arc for their firepower), as are the Hyperions (they don't rely on Hull 6 and the ISA can ignore a lot of Hull 6 with their beams).

I'd probably pick:

2 x Omega (maybe even Pulse Omega in this match as it covers more arcs and the enemy ships don't have Interceptors), 2 x Hyperion, 4 x Chronos, 4 x Hermes and a couple of Hyperion Assault Cruisers would be a lot of fun with their toughness, all-round firepower and threat of a boarding action.
 
yann said:
well i played my 3rd game (5pt battle) as EA vs ISA. and i have some questions and comments.

i had: 2 marathon, 1 appollo strike, 4 chronos and 2 hyperion
he had: 3 white stars I, 2 WS gunships, some fighters, 4 blue stars and two narn raid ships...

For the life of me I can't figure out how to make that ISA fleet fit 5 battle points....

Triggy said:
I'd probably pick:

2 x Omega (maybe even Pulse Omega in this match as it covers more arcs and the enemy ships don't have Interceptors), 2 x Hyperion, 4 x Chronos, 4 x Hermes and a couple of Hyperion Assault Cruisers would be a lot of fun with their toughness, all-round firepower and threat of a boarding action.

This I can though:

1) Omega
2) Omega
3) Hyperion, Chronos, 2 Hermes
4) Hyperion, Chronos, 2 Hermes
5) 2 Assault Hyperion, 2 Chronos

LBH
 
The error (the same one I made in my S&P battle report) was in splitting FAPs. In this case the ISA player has tried to split a Raid FAP into four Patrol FAPs - something you can't do to a point that has already been split. I'm afraid you'd have to drop two of the Patrol PL options and get a Skirmish PL choice instead.
 
About the lenght of your games, our first ~5 games took like 3,5h...and where five point raid.

Nowdays when you know your ship, and your opponents, u do not need to ask so much and u can get it done faster. Although they seem to take along time anyhow :lol:
 
yann said:
wso my questions are:

a) how long does a 5pt raid normaly takes? what about a 5pt battle?
How long is a piece of string? Some games end very quickly (usually because one side utterly trounces the other) while others come right down to the wire. I played a 5 point Raid game yesterday that lasted about 20 minutes. On turn 2 one of my Whitestars took out a Xonn dreadnought with one shot (6-6 crit is nasty with triple damage :shock: ).

I would normally expect a 5 point Raid to last 60-90 minutes and a 5 point battle to last 2-3 hours. This is very much an average though as some games end quickly and others just drag on. Your games will rapidly speed up as you become more familiar with the rules.

yann said:
b) is it normal that blue star survive so well or was it just bad luck on my part (it took fire 2, possibly 3, broadsides form EA battle level ship (being the only target there) and survived!
They have a 3+ dodge which means with a bit of lucky rolling they can survive and incredible amount of firepower. Dodge is very much an "all-or-nothing" trait on small ships.

yann said:
c) how do one deals with white stars efficiently.. it seems these thing never die... (or rather they take quite a beating before dying! it gets discouraging when you fire a crapload of weapons from half your fleet at one at it and it comes out to a total of -4dmg -3crew -2 speed...)
i figure next time i am going to concentrate more until i disable their weapons or destroy them!
Fighters are probably the simplest solution. They are about the only thing that can out-manouvre Whitestar. Also WSs have no weapons outside the forward arc and no Anti-fighter. Sit some fighters on his tailpipe and just peck him to death. EA fighter are pretty good in this regard. There are counter tactics as he may try to line up his Whitestars to hose fighters off each other but he will have a hard time doing that and shooting you. In short you will force him to break off and try to deal with the pesky fighters or risk being nibbled to death (by cats! :D).


yann said:
f) is the slingshot move (due to a gravity well) compulsory or voluntary?
Vuoluntary IIRC.
 
Game length depends on race to a degree, EA vs ISA is a over very quick or fairly long.

I would say that game length is somewhere around 15 minutes plus about 10 minutes per ship once you have the pattern down. But that estimate is to a fairly decisive point... if you play some games to last turn/ship it can be much longer, and squadrons can shorten a game a good bit, lots of fighters can make it longer.

Yes blue stars survive a long time.

Whitestars have some fighter vulnerability and are very vulnerable to crits. (EA doesn't have access, but e-mines and accurate weapons also do well for obvious reasons.) Cover all arcs, use lots of low AD weapons (AA is less efficient vs small amounts of damage from a lot of sources than large amounts from single source) and precise weapons are a plus.

Haven't seen many folks play with any fleet selection limits, recent tourneys have started limiting total number of ships though, and/or requiring the use of a ship at a specific level. The current FAP splits that force you to buy down one level at a time may have been an attempt to force higher pl buys, though that hasn't been the result locally.

Play a few more before you tweak inititative... right now how you maneuver is largely determined by knowing when you'll get to fire. Changing something that big so early may give you screwed ideas on what the game really plays like.

slingshot is compulsory as far as I've heard...

Ripple
 
Just reread the slingshot rules, the extra movement is compulsoryt, the extra turn is optional, unless it's a lumbering ship in which case it doesn't get the extra turn.

LBH
 
Yeah I played a 2 point battle game and it was

Me
2 Ashinties
4 torothos

It took me all of 5 turns to destory 3 of his 4 white stars. The other one jumped away into hyper space. It just takes so long to kill them. Cause everything gets cut in half.... blahhh

just my 2 cents
 
yann said:
i was on my way to getting plummeled before we had to stop. Is the earth fleet struggles versus ISA or was it jsut tactical mistakes (or unluck) on my part (the first two games i played centauri and trashed the ISA fleets)
Yes, a properly handled ISA fleet is a real BEAST for EA. Bottom line: LOTS of fighters. Fighters kill WSs and BSs faster than anything short of emines. EA ships are slow, cumbersome and boresighted and their secondary weapons are, almost without exception, shorter ranged than 18". You want lots of dice, lots of init sinks and lots of fighters, if you're going to take on ISA.

I have to disagree with the other guys here, I would rather face an Omage than a Marathon (properly handled and supported, of course). Marathon is far more likely to get that TD beam on target.



once again the game took too long for us to finish but i assume it was because we have to look at a lot of rules:
so my questions are:

a) how long does a 5pt raid normaly takes? what about a 5pt battle?
I played my first game with people who didn't have to look up rules or be taught them ever phase of every turn on Sunday and it took us about 5 hours for 6 raid. Course, it was a 3-for-all...

b) is it normal that blue star survive so well or was it just bad luck on my part (it took fire 2, possibly 3, broadsides form EA battle level ship (being the only target there) and survived!
If they make their dodge rolls, they are real buggers to kill. I had one survive triple broadsides from Chronosfor 3 turns before killing a Drakh Raider on Sunday. And one that bought it practically from the first hit...

c) how do one deals with white stars efficiently.. it seems these thing never die...
Concentrate fire. Get as many dice onto a single ship as possible and unload. Like others said, Hermes and Fighters. I like the Myrmidon as an anti ISA ship, myself.
 
How long is a piece of string?

A hundred twenty-two thousand miles...but unfortunately due to bad planning, its all in three inch lengths...

:lol:

if you don't get that then you're just not british. :wink:

Chern
 
thank you for the answers...

though i am still as confused as to how to destroy WS...

i mean adaoptive armor means you get a better yield with small amount of dice... that's what i tried last game...

but small amount of dice means you spread your fire over the entire fleet delling very little damage to everyship.. which in turn means he gets to use the self-repair much more efficiently...

i'll experiement and we'll see what happens.

today i have a 5pt raid EA:crusade VS ISA (i excpect to get beaten)

i'll attempt to concentrate fire on white stars until i make them non-threats through criticals, then i go on to the next...

as for omega vs marathon.. maybe i should try the omega but it is slow (not to mention it really doesn't look as cool!)

i guess this week i'll be trying:
marathon or omega (we said we have to have a battle ship)
2 hyperions
2 chronos
2 myrmidons
2 partol points maybe spent on figthers

though i may replace one hyperion with an explorer or a thanthalus.. (to get fighters but i am not sure yet)


also anyone sees any flaws in my purchase list i posted at the end of the original message?


thanks a lot.

yann
 
well to be sure the best thing is to focus as much fire on one ship as possible until that ship is gone. Fighters are good for that since they ignore stealth of some white stars and since they move after you don't have to worry about being in the front arc as much...however, some ISA players are very good at covering their back with other white stars.

Chern
 
yann said:
thank you for the answers...

though i am still as confused as to how to destroy WS...

i mean adaoptive armor means you get a better yield with small amount of dice... that's what i tried last game...

but small amount of dice means you spread your fire over the entire fleet delling very little damage to everyship.. which in turn means he gets to use the self-repair much more efficiently...

Swarm them with fighters is always good.

Adaptive Armour means you get a better effect with lots of low dice weapons than one multi dice weapon.

6 hits from 1 weapon will do 3 points of damage due to adaptove Armour. but the same 6 hits coming from 6 different weapons will do 6 points of damage as Adaptive Armour has no effect when only 1 point of damage is scored by a weapon.

LBH
 
lastbesthope said:
6 hits from 1 weapon will do 3 points of damage due to adaptove Armour. but the same 6 hits coming from 6 different weapons will do 6 points of damage as Adaptive Armour has no effect when only 1 point of damage is scored by a weapon.
Replace "hits" with "damage points" since those hits could be bulkheads, crits, or double damage :P

2 attacks doing 3 damage each would be even worse... both round down to 1, for 2 damage total.
 
I would recommend the Apollo against ISA; using Standard Anti-Ship Missiles, you can crit them to death. Since Adaptive Armor only halves crew and damage, you have a high chance of crippling and even destroying them by sheer virtue of the volume of crits the Apollo can deal out.

Short of that, I much prefer the Marathon over the Omega. The Omega may carry more fighters, but its secondaries are no match for the Marathon's (Especially, in my opinion, since I equip the Marathon with Flash Missiles) and the Marathon has vastly superior speed and maneuverability. So a Marathon may be a good choice.

I would go with something like...:

2 Raid points = 1 Apollo
1 Raid point = 1 Chronos, 2 Thunderbolt Wings (8 T-bolts Flights)
1 Raid point = 1 Chronos, 2 Thunderbolt Wings (8 T-bolts Flights)
1 Raid point = 1 Chronos, 2 Thunderbolt Wings (8 T-bolts Flights)

Gives you the Apollo, 3 Chronii, and 24 Thunderbolt Starfuries.

And make sure you and your opponent are both using the CTA 2E's FAP Allocation Chart, which you can get from the Free Downloads section on this site; you can only split points between different Priority Levels using the chart inside that document. (You can get it here: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/cta2efaps.pdf )
 
Most folks have explained the multiple small weapon thing... you have to get to at least four damage points to get your second point of real damage... given the dodge/hull/etc... you need to have really big stacks of dice to expect real damage.

The comment about making self repair more effective is true... but decrewing ws was always the more reliable kill anyway.

Ripple
 
Back
Top