The speed of space travel

Monstro44122

Mongoose
I think I understand the basics of space travel. Thrust is not speed, it's G, so it's acceleration. The assumption being, and I might be wrong here, that you thrust up to max speed and then you stay there. A high thrust ship gets to max speed faster than a low G ship, but once there, they are both there (at maximum speed). For this reason, a thrust 3 ship doesn't get where they are going three times as fast as a thrust 1 ship. I think I even saw a particularly advanced equation somewhere. What I haven't been able to find is the answer to the following questions:

1. What is the maximum speed?
2. Should I assume that massive ships, once they get going, are just as fast as their high speed fighters?
3. If I'm right (and there's no reason to believe that I am), how long does it take for a ship to stop? And if I'm wrong, well...same question.
4. Finally, assuming a ship can't stop on a dime, how do I calculate how far away the ship ends up from the point where it tried to stop?

And obviously, this has all been discussed somewhere so I apologize for asking questions that I know have already been answered elsewhere, but I can't, for the life of me, find them.
 
Monstro44122 said:
1. What is the maximum speed?
2. Should I assume that massive ships, once they get going, are just as fast as their high speed fighters?
3. If I'm right (and there's no reason to believe that I am), how long does it take for a ship to stop? And if I'm wrong, well...same question.
4. Finally, assuming a ship can't stop on a dime, how do I calculate how far away the ship ends up from the point where it tried to stop?

And obviously, this has all been discussed somewhere so I apologize for asking questions that I know have already been answered elsewhere, but I can't, for the life of me, find them.

The maximum speed (in space) is the speed of light. In practical terms, ships won't get anywhere near that unless they accelerate for a long time. But otherwise there's nothing stopping a ship from reaching ridiculous speeds because in Traveller M-Drives just use energy and don't require fuel (technically the fusion reactors that power them do, but Traveller's rate of fuel use is completely unrealistic. 1dt of hydrogen fuel should be able to power a reactor for decades).

Going between planets though, there is a practical maximum speed since (because M-drives in Traveller are what they are) the best way to get somewhere is to accelerate constantly, then turnover and decelerate to your destination. The maximum speed would be reached at the turnover point halfway between the origin and destination, and would depend on the acceleration of the drive and the distance travelled. See this thread for how to calculate the travel time: http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=761039

The speed at the turnover point (assuming constant acceleration) would simply be the acceleration (in m/s². 1G = 10 m/s²) multiplied by the time spent accelerating (in seconds). It's not actually that since the ship is never really at 0 m/s², and the planets are themselves moving in their orbits, but for this purpose it's close enough.

So, using the examples in the link:
Total distance = 10 AU, acceleration = 2g (20 m/s²), total travel time = 6.34 days.
Time to midpoint = 3.17 days (273888 seconds). Maximum velocity = 5477.76 km/s.

Total distance = 60 AU, acceleration = 4g (40 m/s²), total travel time = 10.98 days.
Time to midpoint = 5.49 days (474336 seconds). Maximum velocity = 18973.44 km/s.

Note that these are, arguably, "ridiculous velocities". Asteroids hit planets at speeds of around 10-30 km/s - this is far faster than that.

I think that actually covers all your questions, pretty much?
 
Wil Mireu said:
Monstro44122 said:
I think that actually covers all your questions, pretty much?

In spirit, yes, and the answer is very helpful. Unfortunately, I'm still a bit in the dark.

I'm planning an adventure where a prison ship has had a mutiny while passing a space station. The captain comes to a full stop so as to leave the ship hanging in space with red alert klaxons going. The characters come across the prison ship en route to the space station. So, how far away is the prison ship from the station? 1,000 km, 10,000 km, 1 million km? What's realistic? I mean space is pretty big, so if the distance is large enough, the two events are likely to seem unrelated. The characters might not even spot a red alert ship en route if the ship takes three days to come to a halt, right? Also, if the characters are headed for the station, can they stop to investigate this prison ship or are they hurtling along at such insurmountable speeds that stopping to investigate would be otherwise ridiculous? I'm trying to keep in line with the realism of the game, but physics is putting part A of the adventure one AU away from part B and I want them within a few km. I get the impression that I'm out of luck on this one, but then, it seems as though, if I'm out of luck, the whole genre of "stuff you encounter in space" goes out the door with it along with about a third of the Campaign Guide.

Am I missing something?
 
If the PC ship is on course to dock with the station then by the time they become aware of the prison ship they should be moving pretty slowly.

Altering their vector to intercept the prison ship can take as long as you want it to for the purpose of drama.

Think in terms of how many hours (or minutes or days) from the station you want the prison ship to be for plot purposes, then adjust the PCs' initial location and vector to allow them to close with the prison ship on the time scale you want.
 
If you want the players to be able to divert from docking at the station to docking at the prison ship I would place the two pretty close together. There are two reasons, which you have touched on in your last post; they need to be close enough together that the characters notice the ship and they need to be moving slow enough to be able to get there.

Common sense dictates that ship have a little leeway in maneuvering near a space station; they would decelerate enough to be able to adjust their trajectory as docking control directs them to their assigned berth and to avoid the heavy traffic in the area. I would think that something around 1,000 km would work well enough that you could have them divert to the new destination without too much trouble.
 
If the station was near the midpoint of the ship's journey, the ship would indeed take quite a while to come to a local "stop" and could be days away. If the station was close to either end of that journey, then coming to a stop near the station is more feasible.

A system might have a "Maximum Speed" set by the local authorities for areas around occupied planets, but even a 1g ship can reach some pretty hot velocities just between, for example, Earth and Mars, and forcing a ship to slow down serves no purpose unless the drives are unreliable enough that destination worlds are afraid of ships that suddenly can't decelerate. You can run a setting like that, but it isn't any edition of Traveller other than TNE (which explicitly has fuel-using thrusters).
 
I'm new to Traveller, but honestly, I'm not sure why systems would allow ships to zip around at near light speed near their planets. I mean, you're going half the speed of light, someone disables your capacity to decelerate in space combat, aren't you pretty much a giant fusion bomb moving at unheard of velocities, which is, more than likely, on a collision course with the nearest starport?

I figure I better be prepared for this before my players figure out how to use a ship's boat to trigger an Extinction Level Event.
 
Monstro44122 said:
I figure I better be prepared for this before my players figure out how to use a ship's boat to trigger an Extinction Level Event.

Good luck with that ;). Because yeah, that's a pretty huge problem with Traveller (it's been covered in a thousand "near-c rocks" threads without any real resolution - theoretically there's nothing stopping you from attaching M-Drives to a small asteroid in the outer system and accelerate it to ridiculous speeds so that it hits a planet with enough force to obliterate a hemisphere).

The only way around it is to put a limit on M-Drives. Whether it's "they conk out/explode after more than X days of solid use" or "at speeds above X m/s the ship gets torn to bits by micrometeorites with too high a relative velocity", something needs to be there.
 
Monstro44122 said:
I figure I better be prepared for this before my players figure out how to use a ship's boat to trigger an Extinction Level Event.

Easy, they explode in the upper atmosphere doing a little damage to the air.
 
Monstro44122 said:
Wil Mireu said:
Monstro44122 said:
I think that actually covers all your questions, pretty much?

In spirit, yes, and the answer is very helpful. Unfortunately, I'm still a bit in the dark.

I'm planning an adventure where a prison ship has had a mutiny while passing a space station. The captain comes to a full stop so as to leave the ship hanging in space with red alert klaxons going. The characters come across the prison ship en route to the space station. So, how far away is the prison ship from the station? 1,000 km, 10,000 km, 1 million km? What's realistic? I mean space is pretty big, so if the distance is large enough, the two events are likely to seem unrelated. The characters might not even spot a red alert ship en route if the ship takes three days to come to a halt, right? Also, if the characters are headed for the station, can they stop to investigate this prison ship or are they hurtling along at such insurmountable speeds that stopping to investigate would be otherwise ridiculous? I'm trying to keep in line with the realism of the game, but physics is putting part A of the adventure one AU away from part B and I want them within a few km. I get the impression that I'm out of luck on this one, but then, it seems as though, if I'm out of luck, the whole genre of "stuff you encounter in space" goes out the door with it along with about a third of the Campaign Guide.

Am I missing something?

"Passing the space station" isn't really enough to go from. If you are looking for something along the lines of realism, we'd need further information. But try this:

Space stations tend to be somewhere for a reason. So more than likely it's orbiting something (an asteroid, a moon, a planet, a gas giant, etc, etc).

"Passing" it can mean all kinds of things, depending on the destination of the prison ship. Plus don't forget that everything in space is constantly in motion. So assuming the prison ship came to a stop relative to the space station, they will continue to drift apart as time goes on. How much this affects distance depends on exactly where your station is. If it's orbiting a far-distant object, chances are its orbital velocity will be quite slow. If it's closer in to the system's star, it will be much faster. If it's just out in the middle of nowhere, it will probably be in the slower range.

It's probably also safe to assume that any course changes/corrections would be input into the system within a matter of minutes, so the ship would automatically come to a halt as it took hours or days to decelerate.

The PC's ship will have it's own sensors going (probably both active and passive modes) while traveling in-system, so they'll have a bit of notice, though they may actually zip by and have to come back to the ship. But there's plenty of naughtiness you as the ref can do with their minds while that's happening. :) Plus, ships are going to be squawking transponders all the time too. Depending on how well you want your system to be run, you could even say there are designated lanes for intra-system traffic, and that spread throughout the system are traffic satellites where ships file their flight plans and the satellites update planned traffic patterns based upon their transponders and transmissions. Perhaps you have a law stating that a ships transponder has to broadcast its position every 2hrs, and that signal is picked up by traffic satellites, compared to their flight plans and then rebroadcast to all local traffic so their computers can plot their paths and can alert their flight crews to any potential collisions, emergencies, etc. You could even have the traffic satellite broadcasting a possible alert for the vessel and the PC's ship is vectored to the position of the other ship to investigate as a possible emergency.

You are right, space is friggin vast. But so are the oceans, and the airways. Commercial traffic fly in corridors for a reason. Space traffic would be the same. Granted the corridors might be a bit more 3-D, but the concept remains the same. Because space is so big, if you want a chance of rescue, you are going to have to tell people where and when you are going, what path you are flying, and when you expect to get there. So 'stumbling' upon scheduled traffic is expected. Still, the unexpected will always happen at the worst times (yay! an adventure!), so just go with the flow. Who schedules a disaster? :)
 
Monstro44122 said:
Oops. I think I hit a nerve.

Some of these arguments seem to have been going on for awhile. I think I'm going to switch my adventures to the "it's kind of science" level of realism.

Don't switch it because you "hit a nerve". The whole point of scifi (IMO) is to think things through and explore the possibilities. If it turns out to be too complete to practically handle in a game then fair enough, simplify it til it is. But don't throw your arms in the air just because it's been a source of argument for people on an internet board ;).
 
Monstro44122 said:
dragoner said:
Sigtrygg said:
And so it begins... :)

...and ends in physics 101. :wink:

Oops. I think I hit a nerve.

Some of these arguments seem to have been going on for awhile. I think I'm going to switch my adventures to the "it's kind of science" level of realism.

If you say the ship explodes in the upper atmosphere, nobody can prove you wrong, and that is real science. 8)
 
Monstro44122 said:
dragoner said:
Sigtrygg said:
And so it begins... :)

...and ends in physics 101. :wink:

Oops. I think I hit a nerve.

Some of these arguments seem to have been going on for awhile. I think I'm going to switch my adventures to the "it's kind of science" level of realism.

One of the Traditional Flame-Wars of online Traveller Fandom is what happens when Near-C Rocks and other projectiles are used as weapons. It's ok to talk about them just don't take it seriously.
 
dragoner said:
If you say the ship explodes in the upper atmosphere, nobody can prove you wrong, and that is real science. 8)

You can prove it either way by doing the calculations - what is the mass of the ship, how fast is it going, what angle is it coming in at, and plug it into an impact calculator and see what happens. Granted, that'd be the high end of the effect considering it's a ship we're talking about rather than an asteroid, but it's still something usable.

THAT is "real science".
 
Wil Mireu said:
dragoner said:
If you say the ship explodes in the upper atmosphere, nobody can prove you wrong, and that is real science. 8)

You can prove it either way by doing the calculations - what is the mass of the ship, how fast is it going, what angle is it coming in at, and plug it into an impact calculator and see what happens. Granted, that'd be the high end of the effect considering it's a ship we're talking about rather than an asteroid, but it's still something usable.

THAT is "real science".

Purdue is good, that is where I received an engineering degree from. :D

Doing it as an actual physics problem you would: 1) Draw a free-body diagram, 2) Note forces, 3) Determine equations needed, and 4) do the calcs.

-or-

Just say the ship explodes in the upper atmosphere, or that it is common knowledge that it would, and keep playing.
 
I'm new to Traveller, but honestly, I'm not sure why systems would allow ships to zip around at near light speed near their planets. I mean, you're going half the speed of light, someone disables your capacity to decelerate in space combat, aren't you pretty much a giant fusion bomb moving at unheard of velocities, which is, more than likely, on a collision course with the nearest starport?

I figure I better be prepared for this before my players figure out how to use a ship's boat to trigger an Extinction Level Event.

Half the speed of light is still overstating things a bit.
Getting to any meaningful proportion of light speed (even 10%) would take a solid week and a half of acceleration at the 3-4G merchant ships tool around at.


Have a look at the "interplanetary transit times table" - the times there are essentially worked out assuming you start at zero speed, accelerate continuously at (whatever)G for half the distance, then end-over-end (or just stick the drive in reverse, depending on whether you think a G-Drive can work in any direction or if you need to physically reorient the ship) and decelerate to rest at the same rate.

Speed is therefore a pyramid, peaking half-way along the transit.

If you want a quick-reckoner for the maximum speed, the equation* is
Velocity in m/s = square root(acceleration in m/s/s x total distance travelled in m)


* Sorry! But it's a short one, I promise!
 
locarno24 said:
If you want a quick-reckoner for the maximum speed, the equation* is
Velocity in m/s = square root(acceleration in m/s/s x total distance travelled in m)

This equation is actually not correct. I think you were trying to use v²=u²+2as, but if you rearrange that correctly then you would end up with velocity = SQRT(2 * acceleration * distance), so your equation as stated above would be out by a factor of SQRT(2).

The easier one to use here is:

v = u + at.

Since u = 0, it's simply:

velocity = acceleration * time

which is what I said in one of my previous posts here.


* Sorry! But it's a short one, I promise!

People really need to stop apologising for using equations. If people are that terrified of using actual science in a science fiction game, then they should probably consider playing something else.
 
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