The Rule book

[J.T.]

OK got the rules yesterday and I think it was a promo edition as the page cut is somewhat wonky near the back.

I won't go on about binding (mines ok) as it's been covered in other threads but my main concern is that there are no army lists in the book. I was lead to believe they would be. This isn't a big problem as Mongoose have the basic sheets up on their web site for down load. And before you all shout well it is a collectable figures game...I know that.

But I've been gaming for many years, heard of these rules and thought they would be great to use with my rather large collection of modern figures I already have. I was thus slightly disappointed that having bought the book there were no base army lists inside.

Don't get me wrong I like the rules and will be using them but I think this oversight by Mongoose may put off the older hard core gamer from buying a good set of rules and thus reduce overall circulation and sales of this product.

Saying that I can't wait for the Starship Trooper rules to be released.

J.T.

 

[Mr Evil]

well in some ways its good.

say that tommorow on the news they say the USMC have bought 5,000 XMC7000 Transports, mongoose can suddenly add those to the army via the card.

another interesting point is AT43 that requires the army books to build an army, they have had an aisse that the rule books/army books cards and magazines all have different stats and points values here and there !!!! this causes alsorts of confusion.

the rule book gives ou a sructure to build an army to, if you need individul unit stats and cars there free online, if you whant unoficial units then EVO command has a multitude of units for you to use, so its a players game as well.

it did suprise me as well,but i remeber mr sprange telling me they saw a news report on a situation and it made them rethink the stats on a unit that hadnt been released, so more playtesting was due for it, so it shows they can attempt to adapt units as they find out more about them as time goese on.

what would be nice in a few years time is a book with all the units produced thus far in it as a general army list, or a book of units mongoose dont intend to produce them selves.

 

[MongooseMatt]

say that tommorow on the news they say the USMC have bought 5,000 XMC7000 Transports, mongoose can suddenly add those to the army via the card.

That is exactly it!

 

[cordas]

I think it would be nice to issue an army box, with a set of cards for each faction when there are a load of units for each faction.

 

[127th Angry Angels]

Yeah an Army box would be cool. Like the platoon offers for SST that they did. You could have an Armour platoon box with the tanks and some support units in it, to conform to the army list ratios. Maybe it could be an offer rather than a box if you buy "A, B, 2x C and D" in one order it costs "X" rather than "Y" or something.

Who knows. BF Evo is going from strength to strength and anything is possible. Yes, yes i am high on the picture of the future lynx!!

 

[GhostWolf69]

I think what our friend here is trying to say is that Old Timers like him (and me) might want to buy the rule book alone and try the game out with figures we allready have.

That means: NOT buying any minis from Mongoose at all, but only the rules.

If we like the rules, who knows? Maybe we'll buy into some minis as well?

If there are NO lists of "common units" or similar to show the way in the rule book, that book will not be suficient to acctaully play the game at all. (more or less) and will hence be a disapointment to someone who bought it and intended to use it with his own minis.

I have to agree with that notion. Some basic examples and small "lists" (to be expanded in future unit boxes as Mongoose intended) would probably have granted the game a bigger audience, cause it would have allowed fans to like the rules even if they didn't like/buy the minis.

/wolf

 

[Chiwie]

umm....

you can get the unit cards online you know... for free.

 

[Gibbs]

And failing that they are in SandP. Mongoose does a fantastic job in making their rules available (their basic rules are available for free too of the same page). I know that you may feel like there should be some army lists in it but in reality the army list and the rules are already available to download for free. The advanced rulebook is advanced rules and as such assumes that you have already got the cards and the basic rules and know how to play... hence the ADVANCED in the title.

 

[GhostWolf69]

umm....

you can get the unit cards online you know... for free.

I know and so does the original poster. But let me ask you something; What looks better in your shelf? A Hard Bound Book or a Hard Bound Book and a pile of printouts?

I just don't see why it would be so dificult to include some of it in the book.

Like one standard Infantery, one Elite, one Vehicle from each section. Thats 3x4= 12 units, say 6 pages in the book. Would it hurt to have it there?

Out of curiosity I wonder if it says on the book that you need the cards (or an internet connection) to play? (I can't check cause I don't have a book.)

/wolf

 

[GhostWolf69]

The advanced rulebook is advanced rules and as such assumes that you have already got the cards and the basic rules and know how to play... hence the ADVANCED in the title.

Good point.

/wolf

 

[Gibbs]

umm....

you can get the unit cards online you know... for free.

I know and so does the original poster. But let me ask you something; What looks better in your shelf? A Hard Bound Book or a Hard Bound Book and a pile of printouts?

I just don't see why it would be so dificult to include some of it in the book.

Like one standard Infantery, one Elite, one Vehicle from each section. Thats 3x4= 12 units, say 6 pages in the book. Would it hurt to have it there?

Out of curiosity I wonder if it says on the book that you need the cards (or an internet connection) to play? (I can't check cause I don't have a book.)

/wolf

If you really wanted you could get all the cards printed out professionally on either card or paper. :wink: Then with the paper ones all you have to do is take it to a binders... it'd be like the good old days when people simply bought manuscripts and not books! :lol:

You do make a valid point though Wolf.

 

[GhostWolf69]

If you really wanted you could get all the cards printed out professionally on either card or paper. :wink: Then with the paper ones all you have to do is take it to a binders... it'd be like the good old days when people simply bought manuscripts and not books! :lol:

You do make a valid point though Wolf.

Yeah I know... and I'm not the one hurting here, I've bought a whole bunch of boxes cause I like the minis and I'm too tired to paint anymore.

BUt I can totally see how someone (friends of mine) with their closet full of minis allready can walk into this "trap".

"Hey! Look at this?! Cool... lets buy!" Go home... read, read, read... wtf? I can't even test-play this game without downloading half of it myself from the internet!?"

I'm just saying; Not everyone will come into this game the way we did;, i.e. through buying the first wave of inf boxes and drooling at the minis, and now we're set to the teeth waiting for the "advanced" rules.

Some people will learn/hear of this game further down the road... and they might then make the easy mistake of buying the "rule book" first.

Maybe it's no biggie, but I will definetly tell my LFGS about this so that the owner can inform customers about this. They have a right to know how it is "set-up" for better or for worse.

/wolf

 

[GhostWolf69]

I don't mean to be a dick here... (or maybe I do?) but this is a quote from Mongoose's OWN site for the Rule book:

"This rulebook provides many advanced rules such as battles involving emplacements, air units, artillery, minefields, lots of new scenarios to test your tactical capabilities, army lists, and a complete campaign system."

I don't know what you think... but something is definetly not right here.

/wolf

 

[Mr Evil]

to be honest its the figures thats ell the book and not vice versa.
also wargames companies make more money from figures than they do rule books.

 

[GhostWolf69]

to be honest its the figures thats ell the book and not vice versa.
also wargames companies make more money from figures than they do rule books.

In the majority of cases for this specifc game... I guess you are right.

But so? ... does that mean anyone else who, like me, likes to buy mini game rules to read and see how they play should be left to rot?

I have tons of mini rules, that I never even bothered to buy minis for. And other games that I bought and played using other minis than intended for that specific game.

I don't have a problem with Mongoose deciding which way is the "correct" way to pick up this hobby (this game) but I think it should be clearly stated somewhere that this and/or that is a pre-requisite to be able to have some fun with the book you're buying.

From what I see right now (without book) it says it will include army lists, when it clearly doesn't.

/wolf

 

[Secesh]

The book has a list of how many of each type of unit you can take for your army. That's an army list....from a certain point of view.

Like how Starship Troopers was a highly successful film....from a certain point of view.

Sorry I couldn't resist. Me bad.

 

[J.T.]

Well I didn't think my little question would turn into such a debate but I have to agree with Wolf.

To an old timer like me an army list for a set of rules contains the basic troop types for each side with stats and points to allow for a game to play.

I understand this is a collectable figure game and the cards come with the figures and Mongoose have gone some way to solving the problem by the free downloads but it still courses headache to some of us.

I've gamed for over 30 years (though I wouldn't call myself an old timer in the real sense of the hobby) but one of the guys I game with is in he 60's and has a vast collection of figures that we use. I feel for him, and people like him, these rules would be a bad buy (especially as he doesn't use a computer), even thought the rules themselves are very good and look like they work well.

I'm suprised there isn't some kind of basic points system to allow for making units for armies that are not generally used. but then that's just me.

I just think it would have opened the game up to a larger audiance than it has at the moment

J.T.

 

[GhostWolf69]

I'm suprised there isn't some kind of basic points system to allow for making units for armies that are not generally used. but then that's just me.

I loath Point-buy systems by default, but some examples of what troops could look like would go along way.

I just think it would have opened the game up to a larger audiance than it has at the moment

Exactly. Then again... from a marketing perspective, narrowing it down to a younger more computer savant target audience might be the right thing to do. I won't argue with that.

My main gripe here seems to be the that the product is lacking in warning signs to stte this fact.

I will do my part in telling my LFGS so he won't make a misstake and sell a copy to our Old Timer... yeah you know the kind who lives out in the foest and has collected minis since I was in kindergarten and who don't have neither TV nor computer...

/wolf

 

[Xorrandor]

The book has a list of how many of each type of unit you can take for your army. That's an army list....from a certain point of view.

Well, I don't have the book yet ( ), but this sounds like a reasonable army list to me. Why is this insufficient? Sounds like a "real life army list", to me.

Yeah, stats would be nice, but I don't see why they would want to take out a chapter of advanced rules in order to recap all the card text that they've already published. And if there were only 3 units per faction, you know someone would complain about how they didn't include air support, or special forces infantry, or some other thing...

 

[J.T.]

To me that is not an army list it is an arm orginisation chapter. To say you need so many squads to make this company is a description on how the army is put together which in turn is fluff for the book. interesting to read but unless you have all the figures no use in game terms.

What I, and I think Wolf, are trying to say is that a) for those, like us, who have gamed for a life time we see a list in a rule book as having stats to enable you to play the game.

I bought the rules believing this would be included as it stated arm lists on the book. No where did it say this book needed the card, ok perhaps I should have researched it more but I fell into a basic trap paid my money and was disappointed I couldn't use the rules straight off.

AND yes I have now downloaded the cards of the site but saying that it still makes it frustrating for old timers looking for a new set of rules to use with their existing miniatures collection.

Again this is just my view and can be taken or left as you a see fit. Apart from this issue I like what I've read, just disappointed concerning this issue and I'm sure I won't be the only old timer in this situation either.

J.T.