The power of small arms in WaW

[Blue Devil 88]

This has probably been asked before but am I missing something?

I can understand infantry in close combat taking out an armored vehicle but why can rifle fire?

Example: A squad of German riflemen fire at the flank or rear of an M3 halftrack and roll three 6's. The halftrack rolls for its 6+ saves and misses all the rolls. This would cause the vehicle to sustain three hits that are enough to destroy the vehicle.

My question is why??? I could see may be a rifle possibly taking out a jeep but a halftrack. I think not! But as I have already have stated maybe I missed something.

If this can not be done could you clear this up and please tell me where this located in the rules.

 

[amrowe1999]

This is completely valid and can be viewed like this. When you shoot at a tank nothing is perfectly covered especially during WW2 so as you shoot you could have a bullet or 2 or more hit things like exposed hoses or fuel tanks. Hit a fuel tank a few times to many and it makes the tank go boom. Sever a few hoses on a vehicle and it loses control.

Think of it like this the tank or jeep or whatever may not be "exploded" but may be no longer effective for combat hence the "dead" vehicle

Hope that helps.

 

[AmanAgain]

if it seems unreaslistic to you then up the hit so that basic small arms can't damage it, which would be to 7. Personally, I don't see how rifle fire can damage them except on a very very lucky shot, but rifle grenades should be able to take them out with proper rolling. As the game doesn't specifically represent the rifle grenade, then perhaps the rolling of a '6' on the flank can represent that.

if it makes you feel better, halftracks are impervious to small arms from the front.


Finally, remember that halftracks aren't tanks. they were only used to transport infantry and defend themselvse with their MGs, which could be unloaded. The armor was really to protect them from harassing artillery fire and small arms at distance. They weren't expected to assault anything with armor that flimsy. And the diaries I've read about US Mech infantry has them hiding well behind the lines, I might add. Perhaps if you think of them more as armored trucks with MGs rather than light tanks, that'll put it in perspective.

 

[hithero]

I'm with you Blue Devil, but its not really that HT's can be taken out of action with small arms, its the fact that they are taken out so easily with small arms. Don't know why they can't react return fire either (which would help them), surely thats part of the MG's job?

 

[Blue Devil 88]

I was told to never assume anything. An armored vehicle taken out by a rifle???? I don't think so! Crew maybe but not vehicle.

The game system is good but the vehicle stats leave a lot to be desired. And if the solution is to change (house-rules) them there is something wrong with the system.

One of the biggest boo-boos is an American Sherman being slower than a Tiger. ???????

Be that as it may, I like the game system for its simplicity and speed but not for its vehicle stats.

 

[Agis]

One of the biggest boo-boos is an American Sherman being slower than a Tiger. ???????

All long addressed! 8)
Please read the free S&P article on Shermans and all will become clear. I fully expect that you are happy again after reading it...
:wink:

 

[Agis]

This topic is drifting in a strange direction some time to chime in...
:wink:
As far as Halftracks and their target, armour and kill values are concerned...

1st step: Let us take a look at real life values as a starting point:
A US M3 has a side armour value from 10 to 15mm.
A German SdKfZ 250/251 11 to 15mm.

The average Rifle or MG can penetrate up to 12 or 13mm.
So even considering ONLY armor values it is possible to penetrate the side armour of HTs.

2nd step: After that please bear in mind that Target/Armour/Kill is also representing the silhouette of the vehicle, slope of the armour, exposed crew etc.
3rd step: Then think on game design reasons. AmanAgain and amrowe1999 explained some of these very good IMO.
The rules are also their sometimes to encourage a certain style of play. I definitely did not wanted HTs charging forward as moblie Pillboxes being impossible to destroy by infantry fire.

Vehicles not reacting: Yes in real life the MG might return fire. This is a pure game design decision. Rabidchild has allowed vehicle reactions in his TreadHead book. The problem here is that vehicles are already pretty strong (as they should) in the game. Allowing vehicle reactions would shift the balance further towards AFVs.

I hope the above helps to understand the values. I strongly believe that the vehicle values NOT leave a lot to be desired. 8) :wink:

 

[Iain McGhee]

I used to think that the halftracks were underarmoured in WAW too, based on other games, until I investigated a bit more. I think Agis might even be overestimating the side armour a bit, at least on the base versions. Either way, most rifles and MGs could penetrate them at the sort of ranges WAW uses.

 

[Agis]

I used to think that the halftracks were underarmoured in WAW too, based on other games, until I investigated a bit more. I think Agis might even be overestimating the side armour a bit, at least on the base versions. Either way, most rifles and MGs could penetrate them at the sort of ranges WAW uses.

Good to know...
8)
[Evil mode on] Must drop side armour to 5+ 6+ 6+...[Evil mode off] :twisted: :wink:

 

[Rabidchild]

Thank you for the nod there Agis. Also, just to add another dimension to the formula: from the side or rear it would be possible to fire down into the crew compartment, they were open topped after all. The way the rules are abstract only barely takes height into account. Is the MG being fired at the halftrack from a prone infantryman in a ditch, a tripod on a hill, or a pintle mount on another vehicle?

 

[Hiromoon]

Well, that depends. Some M3 half tracks had a crew compartment seperated from the passenger compartment. Sepp Allerberger was able, in one battle, to take out the driver of the M3 using captured Russian AP rounds to penetrate the vision slot armor, trapping the passengers in a vehicle they couldn't get out of without getting trapped by disgruntled German and Austrian infantry.

Read about it in Sniper on the Eastern Front.
http://www.amazon.com/Sniper-Eastern-Front-Memoirs-Allerberger/dp/1844153177