The limits of patronage

[Lemnoc]

A wealthy Patron has a mission for my players. They’ve requested from the Patron some pretty pricey high-tech equipment to help them complete the mission. As GM I’m not sure I want them to keep this equipment or, really, have it on this mission.

I know I can contrive to take this equipment away from them, but on the larger issue of establishing a budget for a mission—how much financial assistance and technical aid players might expect—I wonder if others have thoughts and rules of thumb for this?

 

[F33D]

but on the larger issue of establishing a budget for a mission—how much financial assistance and technical aid players might expect—I wonder if others have thoughts and rules of thumb for this?

That is purely a matter of a risk/reward and available resource equation that the Patron would work out.

 

[Lemnoc]

That is purely a matter of a risk/reward and available resource equation that the Patron would work out.

An almost breathtakingly unhelpful answer that restates the question as though it is the answer.

Putting this another way: How might one work out the matter of risk/reward and available resource equation that the Patron would work out, given—y'know—I am playing the Patron and am doing this work?

 

[AndrewW]

Ask yourself a few questions:

Would the patron have access to such equipment? If not, would the patron be able to obtain it?

If yes to either of those, would the patron be willing to put the equipment in the hands of the players?

Can always just have the equipment be a loan for the mission to be returned afterwords. The patron is wealthy so may have some resources for going after the players if they fail to return it.

If the equipment is needed for the mission, it could come out of the reward for the mission.

 

[F33D]

That is purely a matter of a risk/reward and available resource equation that the Patron would work out.

An almost breathtakingly unhelpful answer

Only if one is breathtakingly illiterate. Otherwise one would apply the data to the existing scenario in question. A scenario that hasn't been detailed here.

 

[hdan]

That is purely a matter of a risk/reward and available resource equation that the Patron would work out.

An almost breathtakingly unhelpful answer

Only if one is breathtakingly illiterate. Otherwise one would apply the data to the existing scenario in question. A scenario that hasn't been detailed here.

Be fair, F33D. He asked for some guidelines and help, and your response was, in effect, "there are no guidelines, and I have no suggestions to help you".

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

Lol, well, there is the scenario and reaction by the PCs in a nutshell. Limited resources, presented solution, pushback and reaction.

Figure out how much the Patron is worth, what he does, who his connections are. If he is rich he has ties to the community so he is not going to hire wandering space hobos if his name is going to be attached to them and their crazy shenanigans.

What does he have to lose by NOT hiring the PCs? If he is going to lose it ALL, then he has nothing to lose by giving the PCs anything they need. If its only a business deal, worth a lot but not his life, life of his family, standing in the community, that sort of thing, then he is going to scale back what he provides. The tools he provides are going to coorelate with how important the mission is to him.

Military grade equipment is not going to be available UNLESS the patron has military ties or there is some reasonable connection. Like, (to use a modern example) drug lord enforces wont have M16s, unless there is a crooked armoury officer, recent raid on a military base, local war with a battle that went really bad for the Americans, etc. Drug lords wouldn't just go to the local Walmart and buy a few of these. If the patron offers the PCs M16s, they will assume he has military ties, and if he has disco parties, babes and a miniature giraffe, they will assume he is a crime boss with illegally gotten M16s. Or they should. And illegally gotten M16s probably won't do them any good if they take them after their job with the patron is over - any cop, inspector, military guy is going to want to know EXACTLY where they got those things. The patron won't want that to happen either.

I hope this isn't stunningly worthless :wink:

 

[Lemnoc]

If the equipment is needed for the mission, it could come out of the reward for the mission.

I hope this isn't stunningly worthless :wink:

Thanks for the civil answers.

 

[alex_greene]

The Patron needs to have something done. If it was a simple matter of having the proper equipment to hand, even if he had masses of money, he'd hire professionals to use that equipment who aren't Adventurers.

If the Adventurers need specialised gear - a TK-312 sniper rifle, a TL 15 hand computer with infiltration software, two bottles of Nitroscopoline anaesthetic gas and a heavy-duty atmo distributor rig designed for AR-1551 air conditioning systems - custom dictates that they obtain these cunning devices from brokers and the street, not the Patron.

A few minutes' discreet enquiries and flipping the pages of the local telephone directory or yellow pages might be a more efficient answer than bleating to the Patron. It takes the financial load away from the Patron, allows for plausible deniability and it maintains the characters' reputations as Men Who Get The Job Done.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

A wealthy Patron has a mission for my players. They’ve requested from the Patron some pretty pricey high-tech equipment to help them complete the mission. As GM I’m not sure I want them to keep this equipment or, really, have it on this mission.

I know I can contrive to take this equipment away from them, but on the larger issue of establishing a budget for a mission—how much financial assistance and technical aid players might expect—I wonder if others have thoughts and rules of thumb for this?

The patron doesn't work with the PCs then. Unless a PC can role-play something to convince the patron to offer more to them. He's not the only patron/encounter in the universe.

 

[Condottiere]

Striker/mercenary tickets would provide a guideline, in that if the patron has to provide equipment, they'll pay a bonus if it's returned undamaged, and mostly likely reduce payment to a more appropriate level.

This may be where some experience with Shadowrun is appropriate. If the party are adventurers rather than an acknowledged mercenary outfit, they would be a deniable asset, the patron may be a local fixer who knows where to get the necessary equipment, and may charge either his client or the party or both for arranging that sort of equipment.

 

[dragoner]

A wealthy Patron has a mission for my players. They’ve requested from the Patron some pretty pricey high-tech equipment to help them complete the mission. As GM I’m not sure I want them to keep this equipment or, really, have it on this mission.

I know I can contrive to take this equipment away from them, but on the larger issue of establishing a budget for a mission—how much financial assistance and technical aid players might expect—I wonder if others have thoughts and rules of thumb for this?

There is the other side of the hill as well, give the players what they want and then crack open the CSC and throw some real hairy stuff at them. Then once they get what they want, they will never want it again. :twisted:

General rule of thumb I use is that the patron isn't going to front more than a decent percentage of the take. At the same time, if the adventurers are expendables, the patron isn't going to want t arm them so well that after the deal is done, they are having to renegotiate with the pc's of the fundamentals of the deal; so that is to say that the patron won't want them better armed than his own people.

 

[alex_greene]

The way mine work is like this.

The Patron needs a job done, and has the money to hire people to do the job. He also has someone who can be a Contact of the player characters - someone who fronts for the characters and makes the arrangements.

The priority is this - Needed Skills; Needed Equipment; Reputation. Do the characters have the skills to get the job done, that can't be found on the local job market (obviously, the answer is no or he'd be hiring the locals)? If the characters can do the job, do they already have the equipment to do the job, or does the Patron have to keep on searching until he does find someone?

Next, if the characters can do the job, but neither they nor the Patron have the equipment, is there any time to go and get some Adventurers who do have the required kit - or will the Patron have to take it on the chin and stump up the cash to buy what is needed for them?

Lastly, if the characters have the skills, but lack the required equipment, do they have some other factor, such as a reputation, that sets them above their rivals and make them a viable proposition as The Guys To Finish The Job, more than any other guys?

If the characters whine and demand that the Patron supply them with gear, he could give them what they want, and demand it back afterwards - and have not so nice words with their Contact about reputations, making it difficult for them to find good Patrons in the future.

In practical terms, the Patrons are going to want the guys who can get the job done, who have a positive rep, who can do the job because they have the right skills, and who already bring their gear with them. It's not necessarily even about the money, in their case. It's about the professionalism of the Travellers. Behaviour towards Patrons counts as part of their reputation - and a reputation for courtesy goes so very far among Patrons.

 

[Lemnoc]

Good answers, thank you.

Condottiere probably strikes closest to my particular problem, which is the PCs here are troubleshooters for an agency. The agency wants a certain sort of plausible deniability alex_greene gets at, the PCs are expendable, but the agency also wants the job done. This agency is more on the order of an NGO with a mission statement than your usual scheming patron who intends to profit from black market unobtainium. Doesn't make sense they'd be completely parsimonious with aid and equipment, but the agency has limited resources, the PCs are indeed riff-raff spaceport scum (hearts of gold), and I personally as GM don't want to open a credit account for them at the candy store.

I'm sure there are a lot of ways to skin this particular cat, but it is an issue that comes up often enough in play it did get me wondering whether there is a guide or formula out there for GMs budgeting an adventure.

Good stuff here.

 

[alex_greene]

I'm sure there are a lot of ways to skin this particular cat, but it is an issue that comes up often enough in play it did get me wondering whether there is a guide or formula out there for GMs budgeting an adventure.

You can throw in a good reason for the Patron to refuse handing out toys at the start of the mission, if the Patron is an agency.

The branch of the agency hiring the Travellers has a reputation for getting a lot done with minimal equipment - the more gear carried, the more it slows people down. There is also the possibility that if the characters have specialised Agency gear with them and they are captured, or forced to flee and ditch their equipment, that the stuff they leave behind or are caught with could track back to the agency hiring them.

It's not that they don't have a huge budget - they're actually pretty well-funded - but they are trained to go with their skills and natural resources first and foremost, and expect hirelings to be the type to use their brains first as well. Minimal forensic; minimal paper trails; maximum deniability, and everybody keeps their hands clean (apart from the player characters, who have a rep to maintain in the right circles, of course).

"If they've got guns and brains at all ..."
"They've got guns ..."
-- Inara Serra and Nandi, Firefly, "Heart of Gold"

 

[CosmicGamer]

A patron is an important enough character that the GM should put some work into them. In a way, they are not a NPC, they are the GMs PC. They need a background, contacts, enemies, personality, morals, motivations, monetary and other assets and so on. Why do they need the job done? How important is it to them?

Detailing the patron will help you role play situations not planed for - which almost always come up.

Why are the PC's being considered for this job?

Needed Skills; Needed Equipment; Reputation

This is an excellent start. The PC's should have one or more of these qualifications; or others you add to this list. Maybe their qualification is that they are expendable? :twisted:

Will the patron

Fill in skill gaps by providing their own skilled personnel to join the team.
Provide equipment as a loan or perhaps part of down payment - even a ship.
Create aliases, fake backgrounds, forged papers, stolen security codes, and so on if necessary.

The patron may or may not be knowledgeable enough to realize they need to accommodate for any lack of the above. From the patron who just want's to know where their missing shipment is and has no idea how or where or who is behind the disappearance so they probably are using, as has been asked, a simple formula of a percentage of the merchandise's value as a reward for finding it (*1) to the head of a agency that would add a premium in the contract for any unknowns they discover in analyzing the missions logistics. A clause like "plus expenses not to exceed... "

(*1) Of course the contract might be renegotiated once details are uncovered such as it's a matter of dealing with a criminal organization and not just some warehouse employee with sticky fingers.

which is the PCs here are troubleshooters for an agency. The agency wants a certain sort of plausible deniability alex_greene gets at, the PCs are expendable, but the agency also wants the job done.

In this case, the Agency needs to be detailed out as the Patron. Like above, they need a background, contacts, enemies, personality, morals, motivations, monetary and other assets and so on. Why do they need the job done? How important is it to them?

Morals and motivations - If things go terribly wrong will they cut their losses because it's all about profit, leave the PCs hanging or even kill them, send in a backup team because their people are assets and more important than a single job, or the companies reputation for completing a job is more important - we'll make it up on the next job?

Background and contacts that the PC's might be able to access - We have a contact in the star port control or the scout service or whatever. The company does a lot of jobs for certain organizations or political figures so they so they don't want any provable association with their opposition.

Monetary and other assets - Vehicles, specialized tech gear, and so forth that can be checked out or issued and listed as a expense. "Show" money or money for a variety of situations which is not part of the payment and is expected to be recovered and returned - Example: Need to buy some stolen goods to get an in with a smuggler but it is expected that you'll sell the goods or do whatever is necessary to pay back the money by the end of the mission.


In general - I wouldn't hire a plumber if they asked me to provide a pipe wrench. In Traveller, my patrons would probably look elsewhere if they are looking for a gunfighter and they are asked to supply the bullets... and the gun... and armor.... and...

It would be different if in your example the PCs were actual employees of the agency. Certain equipment would be provided and you'd also probably get training and certification on it. IOW - the PC with small arms skill still wouldn't get a rocket launcher.