Technology & Progression

[MasterGwydion]

It also occurs to me that we could further break down Understanding, and Manipulation into 3 categories each. Basic, Average, and Advanced. Mastery is the pinnacle of using that force, so it would not have more categories.

Once we have identified all of the little parts, we will know how many TLs exist in the new system. Some will overlap as perhaps Advanced Mechanical Force Manipulation and Basic Gravity Force Understanding may be at the same TL.

 

[mavikfelna]

Another thing to consider is that education, both access to it and how effective and comprehensive it is, will have a major impact on tech levels, especially when trying to increase them.
At the same time, culture and government also have large effects in application and expansion or suppression of tech levels.

 

[Sigtrygg]

We could make steel for over two thousand years before we found out about atoms, alloys, structure and the like.
Glass is another example, we learned to make it long before we had any understanding of the material science that underpins it.

Forces are one way of looking at technology, but then there is material science, chemistry, biochemistry, and then there is energy...

 

[MasterGwydion]

We could make steel for over two thousand years before we found out about atoms, alloys, structure and the like.
Glass is another example, we learned to make it long before we had any understanding of the material science that underpins it.

That is why a difference needs to be made between Basic, Standard, and Advanced Understanding and also Basic, Standard, and Advanced Manipulation.

Forces are one way of looking at technology, but then there is material science, chemistry, biochemistry, and then there is energy...

Isn't material science, chemistry, biochemistry, etc just using natural forces to manipulate matter? If so, then it is already covered above, but obviously needs some refinement.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There was no understanding, metal refining was done as a magical ritual for centuries...
there are many more examples of "technologies" that were used everyday with no understanding at all of how they actually function.


Similarly there are examples of technologies that could have been possible if simple knowledge was transported back centuries - germ theory of disease, refrigeration...

 

[Sigtrygg]

That is why a difference needs to be made between Basic, Standard, and Advanced Understanding and also Basic, Standard, and Advanced Manipulation.

Isn't material science, chemistry, biochemistry, etc just using natural forces to manipulate matter? If so, then it is already covered above, but obviously needs some refinement.

We were using chemistry long before we understood chemistry, the nature of the chemical bond requires the discovery and understanding of electrons etc.

The nature of electromagnetism wasn't pinned down until Maxwell et al wrote the equations based on Faraday's experimental observations and hypotheses, and yet static electricity, capacitors, chemical batteries, electricity in circuits all existed before the understanding.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Once again we were using chemistry long before we understood chemistry, the nature of the chemical bond requires the discovery and understanding of electrons etc.

The nature of electromagnetism wasn't pinned down until Maxwell et al wrote the equations based on Faraday's experimental observations and hypotheses, and yet static electricity, capacitors, chemical batteries, electricity in circuits all existed before the understanding.

That is the difference between Basic, Standard, and Advanced Understanding. We knew that adding this to that caused these effects, but had no idea why, Basic Understanding. My guess is Atom Theory would be Standard Understanding, and quantum mechanics would be Advanced Understanding.

Edit - First thing that would have to be done is to define the Forces. Chemistry isn't a Force, it is a research discipline.

Mechanical Force
Chemical Force
Electrical Force
Magnetic Force
Nuclear Force
etc.

As some possible examples of Forces that could be rated by this system.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There are three fundamental forces due to quantum interactions - electromagnetism, weak, strong

gravity is the emergent effect of mass/energy etc distorting spacetime

then there is the Higgs mechanism...

Energy boils down to only two, potential and kinetic.

Then there are the laws of thermodynamics...

 

[MasterGwydion]

There are three fundamental forces due to quantum interactions - electromagnetism, weak, strong

gravity is the emergent effect of mass/energy etc distorting spacetime

then there is the Higgs mechanism...

Energy boils down to only two, potential and kinetic.

Then there are the laws of thermodynamics...

For a game mechanic we need to consolidate things into a usable structure though, not just throw every bit of science at it and marvel at the mess we made. lol

 

[phavoc]

No, but they can take that information and use it to uplift their population over time to higher and higher TLs. This may rapidly move them to the Understanding TL for some forces. As they backwards engineer the knowledge into being able to actually start to manipulate those forces, they can start to reach the Manipulation TL of those forces, but this will take some time, obviously.

This is why TL is determined, in this model, based on Understanding, Manipulating, and Mastery. Knowledge is the Understanding level. You can't build stuff with understanding, except concerts and mathematical models. Manipulating those forces would be a higher TL.

Building the facility still requires Manipulation-TL, working there just requires Understanding-TL.

Nope. They just have to be at the Understanding-TL or they won't even be able to use the technology that the Manipulation-TL factory produces.

This is why TL needs to be broken down into Understanding, Manipulation, and Mastery. It is also not based upon the technology the world possesses but their understanding, manipulation, and mastery of said forces. You can be of a high TL and have no technology if you can do those things with Psionics or other biological processes. It should not be just about building machines, from a lever to a sentient computer. Those are methods of going up the tech tree, but they aren't the only paths. TL should reflect all of those options.

Just an idea, but I think it would work universally in a game like Traveller.

What we've seen on our planet is nations bypassing certain stages and moving directly towards endstages, like in cellular communications bypassing entire POTS networks. The necessary infrastructure to fully maintain advanced gear requires an industrial base, but one can easily move to the manufacturing side by importing the equipment and making the equipment - but till you get the other parts of the infrastructure you are beholden to other nations to import it.

China is a good example of a nation that's been working across these barriers at a very rapid pace. It still has notable gaps, but overall its progressed faster than any nation in human history by forcing other nations to provide the base technology in transfers, sending its brightest minds abroad to get the skills, then coming home to build the newer generation of tech. Oh, they still have lots of holes in their plan, but they are also filling in the gaps rather quickly. The west has stupidly contributed to this (sometime innocently like when Hughes engineers explained how to build a fairing correctly so Long March rockets stopped exploding), or less innocently (when the USAF aircraft made an emergency landing on Chinese soil and they got their hands on a modern ELINT aircraft and could figure out just where the hell all those antenna's are supposed to go). And then there is the old fashioned we'll steal it (or, in the case of MagLev, just get the published papers, build it, then learn from it and build it better than the original).

I've always used TL as a general guideline, but also always assumed that people are not going to ignore the fact that they can buy/borrow/build a mish mash of Tech on their planet, just a lot of variables. So much depends on what the heck they are trying to do and what they have to work with. It may be they import certain widgets and wonks and then make their own cobbled-together version of whatever it is they are trying to do. Human ingenuity can bridge some huge gaps.

 

[phavoc]

Another thing to consider is that education, both access to it and how effective and comprehensive it is, will have a major impact on tech levels, especially when trying to increase them.
At the same time, culture and government also have large effects in application and expansion or suppression of tech levels.

Thats a great point. You may all the knowledge of the gods, but if your education system is rote-based, you'll have scads of engineers who can't bridge two points because that's not how things work. Or manufacturing that MUST follow the patter from A...Z with no jumps or breaks. It all works, but its not creative. It would be akin the crap churned out by AI today.

 

[Condottiere]

I would use the word efficiently bypassing intermediate technological development.

Comparatively, desktops and laptops are expensive and take up space, so Africa appears to have adopted the cellphone.

However, I don't think there is any African nation that could, or does, develop cell phone technology, and most of the cellphones themselves are foreign made.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Thats a great point. You may all the knowledge of the gods, but if your education system is rote-based, you'll have scads of engineers who can't bridge two points because that's not how things work. Or manufacturing that MUST follow the patter from A...Z with no jumps or breaks. It all works, but its not creative. It would be akin the crap churned out by AI today.

Memorization is not understanding. If you have engineers who can't bridge two points, then are they really even engineers or are they just claiming to be engineers? The US educational system is designed to train drones, not creative thinkers. That is why most Americans can't think their way out of a wet paper bag.

None of this has anything to do with TL.

In the system I am proposing, a Basic Understanding of something is enough to operate a system that accomplishes a task without knowing why it works, but you still know that is does work every time (like mixing paste from two plants together to make a poultice). Knowing how it works would be Average Understanding, and knowing why is works would be Advanced Understanding.

 

[phavoc]

Memorization is not understanding. If you have engineers who can't bridge two points, then are they really even engineers or are they just claiming to be engineers? The US educational system is designed to train drones, not creative thinkers. That is why most Americans can't think their way out of a wet paper bag.

None of this has anything to do with TL.

In the system I am proposing, a Basic Understanding of something is enough to operate a system that accomplishes a task without knowing why it works, but you still know that is does work every time (like mixing paste from two plants together to make a poultice). Knowing how it works would be Average Understanding, and knowing why is works would be Advanced Understanding.

I wouldn't agree with your description of the US education system. There is no question that it's fractured, but it still leads the world in most areas. You have to look beyond the simple numbers. The US doesn't do the most lines of code, Japan does (or did). But the languages are created here in the US - as are most of the worlds programming languages. The US also sucks up from the entire world some of the most advanced technical talent for schools and they tend to stay and work here. All signs that there is something successful about our system. Though, sadly, we seem to have an inordinate number of people who take pride in ignorance.

The system you are proposing does seem to include concepts like rote memorization (i.e. the ability to use something but not have a clue on how it actually works). Kids are wunderkinds on how to use cell phones but on average they have no clue about cellular signals, differences between 3G/4G/5G, etc. I would expect that in the future you may have entire swaths of populations who are able to "fly" an aircar, but haven't a clue about lift/drag coeffecients or grav tech.

This is one of the advantages/drawbacks to advanced technology. "Little" things like theory are not important nor required in order to operate very sophisticated equipment. A handful of people who, usually, have a natural affinity towards their field of work and do all the theoretical effort to design the system. Then practical and clever people (i.e. industrial engineers) take the idea and figure out how to make the machinery and make it produce the product. From that point you get a lot of basic people who just need to oil the widget or watch the bottle flow by to ensure they are filled and/or had bottle caps on them (i.e. Laverne and Shirley at Shotz brewery).

I see nothing wrong with your idea - that's really how it is today. The question is how many people would get it. I would imagine most worlds would have 50% of the population at a Basic understanding level, around 30% at the middle and 20% (or less) at the top. An exception would be stations or worlds that require life support equipment to survive a hazardous atmosphere. Those types of conditions would (or should) tend to create a slightly more aware individual through simple necessity to survive.