Technology & Progression

Someone asked what major differences each TL has. I found another one.

TL-13+ has no more waste. No more landfills. No more storing hazardous byproducts. TL-13 is where humanity ceases to be a plague of locusts who only consume.

TL-13 is where Deconstruction Chambers occur. They can break down anything on a molecular level. The ultimate recycling system. Its output is feedstock for manufacturing and has 100% efficiency. So, every bit of trash generated by a society, can be broken down with no material losses and remade into new things. Using recycled materials would become cheaper than mining and refining materials in the traditional manner.
A lot of anachronistic and static thinking in the replies to your post. Here is a different take.

What if the listed deconstruction is just the smallest possible version? It could take a few decades or even a hundred years to upgrade the infrastructure and embrace new methods, but just look at how quickly modern society has embraced computing and the internet. Whole spacecraft could be deconstructed and reconstructed. Components on military vessels could be rebuilt and recreated, even as more advanced versions of themselves with newer plans. These seemingly small changes in society could revolutionize how we see everything. I really like your train of thought here. I think it is positive and forward-thinking.
 
Absolutely! Randall Monroe (of XKCD) does a popular science series called "What if" and one chapter was on what would happen if you try to collect samples of all the elements, and it goes wrong very quickly (he says the first two rows are not much problem but they'd have to be in boxes: you don't want to defab and have your oxygen and your flourine in elemental form in the same place.)

One thing about defabricators that means "just ignore it and let the space magic work": the amount of energy required to break some of the compounds down would be huge, and some of them really, really want to immediately recombine.

View attachment 6237

Also, lossless defab/refab isn't possible. We (usually) obey the 2nd law of thermodynamics on this fine forum...
It says breaks down on the molecular level, not the atomic level.

So, you wouldn't have to worry about anything in elemental form unless it is already in elemental form in whatever you are deconstructing.
 
It says breaks down on the molecular level, not the atomic level.

So, you wouldn't have to worry about anything in elemental form unless it is already in elemental form in whatever you are deconstructing.
A follow up thought about not recording a pattern when deconstructing. That’s perhaps a bit close to the grey goo scenario. Not sure they would want uncontrolled deconstruction. Admittedly they aren’t reproducing but still.
 
What Geir said was at Advanced and above, the deconstruction chamber and fabrication chamber are combined in a single unit. As for multiple units per controller, I’d imagine if they cost a million a pop, no matter the size of the chamber, I think it might be tied to a single chamber.
So... what if the chamber was distributed? Pay for a large chamber and distribute it across several apartments/staterooms? Like the main computer or putting one half of the M-Drive to port, one half of the M-Drive to starboard and one half of the M-Drive centerline. (paraphrased from Rich Little's Reaganomics)
 
A follow up thought about not recording a pattern when deconstructing. That’s perhaps a bit close to the grey goo scenario. Not sure they would want uncontrolled deconstruction. Admittedly they aren’t reproducing but still.
Can't be Grey Goo if it cannot operate outside of a controlled environment. You'd need external deconstruction combined with external fabrication.
 
Whatever the process, without transmutation there will be fabrication bottlenecks with particular critical elements. If you need a gram of gold or a kilogram of titanium, you won't be able to source it from air and water.

In the fab economy, I can see a move to robust, general purpose electronics boxes that a fabricator might build the rest of the device around. Those themselves might be kept from deconstruction and cycled into the next device fabricated, programmed to work it.

Oh, and regarding the post scarcity angle... Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age has a few takes on that. That has matter printers, but definite poverty and inequity. And a great scene where a young kid prints out a bunch of mattresses, blowing the family's mass budget, and the big brother has to get them un-printed to get it back. Required reading for anyone with an overly utopian view of nanotech/fabricators but be warned there are some heavy themes at times.
 
Last edited:
One interesting take on 'Recycling with Deconstruction Chambers' -- there is no reason to be confined to second-hand or worn out gadgets. You could just as easily throw in dirt, rocks, streams, and trees. What comes out the other side is piles of pre-fabber resources (whee! Fun -- but not really my point) PLUS all the information to build them.

The information might be regarded as a waste product; but an enterprising young empire might also wish to build an entire Gaia world from such blueprints. At a smaller scale, it is possible to put everything 'back' when you are done with it, or when you happen to have a surplus.

[Edit:] And, if anyone or anything accidentally falls in; no harm done. Looking at the data stream output lets you determine exactly what went in, and when -- and a sufficiently good fabber can just print them back out, complete with memories. [/Edit]
 
Last edited:
One if the issues with Traveller's technology system is the lack of efficiency and progression. As an example, Vacc suits in Traveller rarely get lighter, less expensive, or add additional features. This true of pretty much all components, equipment, and weapons. There is no systematic way to reduce cost, weight, or manufacturing time. There is no benefit to additional capabilities and if there are they are always more expensive.

I do recall in the old days a supplement or article that discussed technological progression of vacc suits, and that may have been DGP. There was even a modular build system for custom vacc suits in CT JTAS.

Should components and equipment get lighter, cost less, or add capabilities. Not just vacc suits as an example, but all technology?

Just one man's opinion, but I thought it would be a neat discussion.

Best regards.

Some counter arguments against always progress and efficiency:
  1. Planned obsolescence drives unnecessary consumption by designing products to fail or become outdated faster than needed. Example - Shelby Electric Company made longest lasting light bulbs (100 years+) is no longer in business closing in 1910s.
  2. Monopolies and strong existing competitors with high barriers to entry suppress hurt progress and efficiency. Not everything is pure free market.
  3. Constant progress fosters addiction by exploiting attention and reward systems for profit.
  4. Streamlined production harms the environment by prioritizing speed and scale over sustainability.
  5. Over-optimization removes redundancy and adaptability from systems.
  6. Pursuit of efficiency erodes craftsmanship and individuality in favor of uniform, mass-produced goods.
  7. Rapid innovation destabilizes social and economic structures that need time to adapt.
  8. Cost-cutting for efficiency often sacrifices durability, repairability, and long-term value.
  9. Progress-oriented design prioritizes novel items over familiarity and usability.
  10. Efficiency metrics ignore emotional or cultural value.
  11. Competitive acceleration in development cycles creates unsafe, untested, and exploitative technologies.
  12. Efficiency-driven systems centralize control, concentrating power in corporations or algorithms.
  13. Focusing on progress fosters waste by rendering functional products “obsolete” prematurely.
  14. Short-term efficiency goals conflict with long-term resilience and ethical considerations.
  15. Non-standardized and non-compatible goods are built for individual use, longevity, and repair rather than disposable efficiency.
 
Planned obsolescence drives unnecessary consumption by designing products to fail or become outdated faster than needed. Example - Shelby Electric Company made longest lasting light bulbs (100 years+) is no longer in business closing in 1910s.
Planned obsolescence becomes less and less important as technology advances. By the time we automate manufacturing scarcity is nearly always artificial and the cycle begins when technology must be better and more durable just to compete. As an example look at the television industry in the last 25 years.
Monopolies and strong existing competitors with high barriers to entry suppress hurt progress and efficiency. Not everything is pure free market.
Nothing is pure free market. Sixty years ago there was no Microsoft, forty years ago there was no Google, and twenty there was no OpenAI. Technology changes everything, including barriers.
Constant progress fosters addiction by exploiting attention and reward systems for profit.
Can, but not always does. We are seeing some human polities like China and the EU taking a much more reasoned and thoughtful approach while America is stuck in the “old west” mentality.
Streamlined production harms the environment by prioritizing speed and scale over sustainability.
Again, not always and not everywhere.
Over-optimization removes redundancy and adaptability from systems.
Can, yes, but there are a lot of sweeping generalizations here that don’t always bear out.
Pursuit of efficiency erodes craftsmanship and individuality in favor of uniform, mass-produced goods.
At the same time improving production methods can also lead to more durable designs and manufacturing processes.
Rapid innovation destabilizes social and economic structures that need time to adapt.
Some polities more than others.
Cost-cutting for efficiency often sacrifices durability, repairability, and long-term value.
This is not an absolute, and in many areas actually inverse.
Progress-oriented design prioritizes novel items over familiarity and usability.
Form follows function.
Efficiency metrics ignore emotional or cultural value.
Only in an unregulated environment. Social democracies are an example of but not the only alternative system.
Competitive acceleration in development cycles creates unsafe, untested, and exploitative technologies.
Technology can also lead to increased safety, better testing, and more egalitarian policies.
Efficiency-driven systems centralize control, concentrating power in corporations or algorithms.
Centralized governance can also mediate this.
Focusing on progress fosters waste by rendering functional products “obsolete” prematurely.
Like the 100s of chargers that the USB-C has eliminated and optimized? Would you prefer the huge leaps in battery life and capacity as an example?
Short-term efficiency goals conflict with long-term resilience and ethical considerations.
Only in uncontrolled capitalism.
Non-standardized and non-compatible goods are built for individual use, longevity, and repair rather than disposable efficiency.
This is a wildly optimistic and color blind assertion.
 
Another thing to consider is some tech has a limit to how much it can be improved or made smaller. A good example of this is vacuum tubes, you might think that transistors have completely replaced them but that not the case. Vacuum tubes are still used in a lot of modern medical equipment, high powered radio equipment and other cases where the power requirements are on the macro scale instead of the micro scale also in cases where EMP is a concern, vacuum tubes are resistant to EMP unlike Transistors. Vacuum tubes are also commonly used in environments where high temperatures as a concern. This all said we haven’t been able to significantly improve vacuum tubes in any way in over 50 years.
 
Just out of curiosity, I know some people have been doing a lot of thinking about TL and what TL means outside of Earth's historical timeline. Just a thought that I had, what if TL is defined as the understanding/control of natural forces.


This seems to be a better method than saying at this TL almost everyone will use cathode-ray tubes. I just don't know if it can't be made workable enough. I know I do not have the knowledge base to make this idea work. Does anyone else on here?
 
Lotsa stuff to unpack in the thread. But let's start with the first question:

Should components and equipment get lighter, cost less, or add capabilities. Not just vacc suits as an example, but all technology?


In some cases, yes. But I don't think it's necessarily a universalism. Some components do get more capabilities, but they also may get heavier or cost more. Think of TVs. When flat screens first came out they had amazing capabilities and they were lighter and smaller than their CRT equivalents. But they were also much more expensive since they were new and all the sunk costs of the technology had yet to be paid off. Today they are bigger, cheaper, but not really lighter. Newer versions are same size, weight, with enhanced (4k, or 8k) capabilities and also more expensive.

It's a logical fallacy to assign the lighter, cheaper, better idea to everything because its so rarely true. As we continue to push the envelope of technology you (usually) ONLY get to choose lighter and better, but NOT cheaper. It's the same mantra for pretty much everything - so very rare that you can get all three simultaneously.

The other arguments, well, geez, there are literally books and books and books and even more papers and nearly uncountable op-ed's on these topics. People say corporations are bad, yet they are a necessary evil in a world that demands large quantities of cheap goods. Prior to the creation of the corporation a company was owned by a singular person, or persons. Raising capital was much more difficult, and companies were tied to the personal fortunes and actions of their owner(s). Many events could see individual companies crash, as could changes in social standings or whisper campaigns against the owners. At the beginning of the 16th century we saw the nascent rise of corporations with the charter of the British East India company. And, over time, the concept evolved and morphed until they have become what they are today. Still necessary, and often, still evil, or at least uncaring. But let's be honest about this - it's not the corporate structure itself that is evil, it's the people who make the choices for how that company is to be run. Essentially it frees people to be evil and say "oh, it's the company". Corporations aren't evil, people are. Just as companies can be indifferent, so, too, can people.

People often decry the "losses" incurred moving to big companies, that things lose their uniqueness, or their individuality or things like that - and they do. But standardization also allows for massive spreading of costs that lower barriers, increase trade and makes highly industrialized societies possible. I happen to like standardized screws, tools, parts, etc when working on my car. "Unique" things that I can only go to one manufacturer for increases my costs for no reason other than profits for them and screwing of me. We are seeing some of the same happening with software laws making it either impossible and/or illegal to do your own work on products you own because companies are trying to shield themselves behind laws to limit competition and access. Personally I think that's wrong. There's a LOT of changes that SHOULD be done in the software arena to make things more even - companies hiding behind software bugs and deploying crapware legally without any sort of liability is wrong when other manufacturers cannot do the same.

Anyways, getting off on a tangent here. The Ops question is valid, but there is no proven universalism to make it true for all things all the time.
 
OLEDS are pretty light, comparatively.

Control the heat output, and we could get really skinny screens, most of the weight being in the base, so it doesn't tip over.
 
Lotsa stuff to unpack in the thread. But let's start with the first question:

Should components and equipment get lighter, cost less, or add capabilities. Not just vacc suits as an example, but all technology?

In some cases, yes. But I don't think it's necessarily a universalism. Some components do get more capabilities, but they also may get heavier or cost more. Think of TVs. When flat screens first came out they had amazing capabilities and they were lighter and smaller than their CRT equivalents. But they were also much more expensive since they were new and all the sunk costs of the technology had yet to be paid off. Today they are bigger, cheaper, but not really lighter. Newer versions are same size, weight, with enhanced (4k, or 8k) capabilities and also more expensive.

It's a logical fallacy to assign the lighter, cheaper, better idea to everything because its so rarely true. As we continue to push the envelope of technology you (usually) ONLY get to choose lighter and better, but NOT cheaper. It's the same mantra for pretty much everything - so very rare that you can get all three simultaneously.

The other arguments, well, geez, there are literally books and books and books and even more papers and nearly uncountable op-ed's on these topics. People say corporations are bad, yet they are a necessary evil in a world that demands large quantities of cheap goods. Prior to the creation of the corporation a company was owned by a singular person, or persons. Raising capital was much more difficult, and companies were tied to the personal fortunes and actions of their owner(s). Many events could see individual companies crash, as could changes in social standings or whisper campaigns against the owners. At the beginning of the 16th century we saw the nascent rise of corporations with the charter of the British East India company. And, over time, the concept evolved and morphed until they have become what they are today. Still necessary, and often, still evil, or at least uncaring. But let's be honest about this - it's not the corporate structure itself that is evil, it's the people who make the choices for how that company is to be run. Essentially it frees people to be evil and say "oh, it's the company". Corporations aren't evil, people are. Just as companies can be indifferent, so, too, can people.

People often decry the "losses" incurred moving to big companies, that things lose their uniqueness, or their individuality or things like that - and they do. But standardization also allows for massive spreading of costs that lower barriers, increase trade and makes highly industrialized societies possible. I happen to like standardized screws, tools, parts, etc when working on my car. "Unique" things that I can only go to one manufacturer for increases my costs for no reason other than profits for them and screwing of me. We are seeing some of the same happening with software laws making it either impossible and/or illegal to do your own work on products you own because companies are trying to shield themselves behind laws to limit competition and access. Personally I think that's wrong. There's a LOT of changes that SHOULD be done in the software arena to make things more even - companies hiding behind software bugs and deploying crapware legally without any sort of liability is wrong when other manufacturers cannot do the same.

Anyways, getting off on a tangent here. The Ops question is valid, but there is no proven universalism to make it true for all things all the time.
I am not saying to use specific technologies, so much as to define TL by the understanding of natural forces, and then later, the manipulation of those forces, and finally the mastery of those forces. This would seem to be a good way to determine TL.

Understanding is mostly awareness/mathematical theories.

Manipulation is self-explanatory. We can manipulate thermal energies now, but We haven't mastered them to the point of being able to convert thermal energy to other types of energy with 100% efficiency.

Mastery means having total control over a natural force, such as gravity. (converting other types of energy into gravity or gravity into other types of energy with 100% efficiency)

Just an idea for, perhaps, a different way to redesign Tech Levels so that they are actually universal.
 
Can, but not always does. We are seeing some human polities like China and the EU taking a much more reasoned and thoughtful approach while America is stuck in the “old west” mentality.
Well, the "old west" model is kicking the others ass econ wise. :ROFLMAO:
 
A device from TL X should be measurably better than one from TL X-1; each TL should reflect a measurably consistent improvement over previous TLs.
Hmm, some but not all. The above mentioned Mason Jar was invented in 1858. It's design hasn't changed since.
what TL is 1858 compared to today?
 
I am not saying to use specific technologies, so much as to define TL by the understanding of natural forces, and then later, the manipulation of those forces, and finally the mastery of those forces. This would seem to be a good way to determine TL.

Understanding is mostly awareness/mathematical theories.

Manipulation is self-explanatory. We can manipulate thermal energies now, but We haven't mastered them to the point of being able to convert thermal energy to other types of energy with 100% efficiency.

Mastery means having total control over a natural force, such as gravity. (converting other types of energy into gravity or gravity into other types of energy with 100% efficiency)

Just an idea for, perhaps, a different way to redesign Tech Levels so that they are actually universal.
I completely agree. TL is a bit of a misnomer as Mr. Z from a TL-3 world can return from his trip to Capital and have a device that has technical information on pretty much every TL-15 technology and device that is known to man.

That's not saying much as his TL-3 world can't do a lot with it.

TL has to encompass not only the knowledge, but the capabilities of a planet to understand, support and manipulate it at large scale. Keep in mind that you can have relatively low level workers maintain and operate machinery they don't quite understand - but using and building it from scratch are two entirely different things. Look at semiconductors. Nearly all of the worlds advanced semiconductors use equipment from ASML - a Dutch company. Taiwan (using ASML equipment) make the most advanced semi-conductors on the market and it was founded around 1990. Malaysia supplies a lot of chips and Intel went there over 50 years ago. Yet the semiconductor was invented in the US - which has outsourced a lot of the manufacturing of semiconductors. We are on one planet, but with other star systems just weeks away (much like products are by ship today), one would expect all kinds of distributed supply chains, and a total mish-mash of planetary tech levels.

A planet does not have to be able to create the TL devices they use/build natively - they just have to be connected to the overall supply chain where they can obtain the necessary theory, knowledge and/or materials to build and operate it. So a planetary TL rating is gonna be a hodge-podge, I think, no matter what system is used to create it.
 
I completely agree. TL is a bit of a misnomer as Mr. Z from a TL-3 world can return from his trip to Capital and have a device that has technical information on pretty much every TL-15 technology and device that is known to man.

That's not saying much as his TL-3 world can't do a lot with it.
No, but they can take that information and use it to uplift their population over time to higher and higher TLs. This may rapidly move them to the Understanding TL for some forces. As they backwards engineer the knowledge into being able to actually start to manipulate those forces, they can start to reach the Manipulation TL of those forces, but this will take some time, obviously.
TL has to encompass not only the knowledge, but the capabilities of a planet to understand, support and manipulate it at large scale.
This is why TL is determined, in this model, based on Understanding, Manipulating, and Mastery. Knowledge is the Understanding level. You can't build stuff with understanding, except concerts and mathematical models. Manipulating those forces would be a higher TL.
Keep in mind that you can have relatively low level workers maintain and operate machinery they don't quite understand - but using and building it from scratch are two entirely different things.
Building the facility still requires Manipulation-TL, working there just requires Understanding-TL.
A planet does not have to be able to create the TL devices they use/build natively - they just have to be connected to the overall supply chain where they can obtain the necessary theory, knowledge and/or materials to build and operate it. So a planetary TL rating is gonna be a hodge-podge, I think, no matter what system is used to create it.
Nope. They just have to be at the Understanding-TL or they won't even be able to use the technology that the Manipulation-TL factory produces.

This is why TL needs to be broken down into Understanding, Manipulation, and Mastery. It is also not based upon the technology the world possesses but their understanding, manipulation, and mastery of said forces. You can be of a high TL and have no technology if you can do those things with Psionics or other biological processes. It should not be just about building machines, from a lever to a sentient computer. Those are methods of going up the tech tree, but they aren't the only paths. TL should reflect all of those options.

Just an idea, but I think it would work universally in a game like Traveller.
 
A planet does not have to be able to create the TL devices they use/build natively - they just have to be connected to the overall supply chain where they can obtain the necessary theory, knowledge and/or materials to build and operate it. So a planetary TL rating is gonna be a hodge-podge, I think, no matter what system is used to create it.
This is the fundamental disconnect between Traveller's basic system generation for government/law/TL, which was designed for creating high adventure backwaters and has not been adjusted to account for the ever increasing effectiveness of the Imperial goverment.

It's ideal for the Trojan Reach, but things get wonky when you are inside a trade cartel empire.
 
Back
Top