Stun

[Supplement Four]

Here is a tweak that will keep PCs alive in this very deadly game and do so in a believeable way.

Note the offical rule book's definition of zero hit points: When a character's hit points drop to exactly zero, he is disabled. He can take either a single move or a standard action each turn and he cannot take full-round actions. The character can take move actions without further injuring himself but if he performs any standard action or other strenuous action, he takes one point of damage after completing the act. Unless the character's activity increases his hit points, he has -1 hit points and is dying.

This rule is used when the character is at exactly 0 HP, but how many times in a game (or even a character's life time) will damage reduce the character to exactly 0 HP?

It's not very likely. In fact, it is so unlikely, that it will be a rare occurence, indeed, when this happens in a real game.

Well, this Zero Point Stun rule will make the use of this rule occur more frequently in a game and, many times, save the PCs from getting killed (and it will do all of this in a believeable way).

Here's how it works...





Whenever a character is reduced to 0 HP or less (not through Massive Damage), have the character throw a Fortitude Save vs. a DC equal to 10 + half the damage dealt. Note that this is the same save used when the character suffers from Massive Damage.

Failure on this save means damage is applied normally, and the character is reduced to 0 HP or less.

Success means that the character is reduced to the appropriate number of negative hit points, but the character is treated as if his hit points were reduced to exactly 0 HP. Each round during the stun, the character will heal 1 HP until his negative points reach a total of 1 HP. When the character regains his senses at 1 HP, he can continue the fight normally.

During the stun rounds, the character is subject to the official 0 HP rule above. If he takes a standard action, he will be reduced to -1 HP the next round. Also during the stun rounds, the character is considered flat footed and cannot parry or dodge.

If the stunned character takes additional damage while stunned, either through additonal damage dished out by his opponent or by taking a standard action and suffering damage of 1 HP as outlined above, the character's stun is canceled and the character collapses, dying at his current negative hit point total.

In many fights, this rule will only prolong the inevitable. The PC will probably be reduced to negative hit points and be considered dying. But, in some circumstances, the fact that the stunned character can continue to move will save the character's life.

Note that this rule is not used when Massive Damage is applied, and the character is subject to the standard Massive Damage rules.







Let's look at an example:

Thurag, the Cimmerian, has 2 HP left when he suffers a blow for 6 points of damage. This puts Thurag at -4 HP, and his player makes the stun roll. This is a Fort Save vs. DC 13.

The save is successful, so Thurag is considered stunned. He's flat footed and subject to the 0 HP rule.

Each round, Thurag "heals" 1 HP. This represent the stun wearing off. The stun will be completely worn off when Thurag reaches 1 HP (and no more healing will occur from the stun after Thurag reaches 1 HP).

If Thurag takes additional damage during any time while he is stunned, he will collapse and be considered dying at his current negative HP total.

So, Thurag is stunned, reduced to -4 HP on round one. On round two, Thurag will be at -3 HP. At round three, he will be at -2 HP, and so on until Thurag reaches 1 HP. Additional damage to Thurag at any point in this process will remove the stun, leaving Thurag at negative hit points and dying.

 

[Sutek]

It's an interesting idea, but I think I suggested that you count 0HP or less as Unconcious, giving a system for recovery along with the suggestion.

I'm just confused by the reason for your system here. You've continually said that your group likes gritty role play, but yet you're doing everything to keep them from dying.

It sounds like you want to play D&D4. With the Surge mechanic, there's no end to the ability to "avoid dying".

But, never mind that. Why not use a rule that already exists and make it easier on your self. The Stunning Attack feat, if successful forces a FORT save (DC=10 + half lvl + STR mod) so that higher level and greater strength are the factor, rather than the damage roll, thus "double-dinging" the poor target.

Use this anytime someone is brought to 0HP by some means other than Massive Damage, toxins or magic. The save passed mean that the character loses no excess HP and is set at 0HP, but isstunned (1 rnd drn, until just before attacker's next turn; may not act, dodge or parry; attackers get +2 to hit). If the save fails, then he goes to whatever HP he would normally and he is either disabled or dying.

Massive damage saves fuction as normal, as do toxins and magic.

You see, being stunned already exists, and it's only very, very mildly better than being disabled. (lol)

 

[Supplement Four]

It's an interesting idea, but I think I suggested that you count 0HP or less as Unconcious, giving a system for recovery along with the suggestion.

You did, but I decided to go with the offical rules as written. Then, I decided to modify the official rules with this stun rule.

I like it much better than a blanket rule stating "0 HP and below means a character is unconscious" because that is too forgiving and not as "gritty" as I'd like it to be.

I'm just confused by the reason for your system here. You've continually said that your group likes gritty role play, but yet you're doing everything to keep them from dying.

Liking a "gritty" system doesn't mean we like playing with dead or maimed PCs. We want the chance to be there, but we don't want it so "life like" that we're burying PCs every game session and spending the next rolling up new characters.

This rule keeps the gritty feel of the game, and it gives the PCs "a chance".

Note, as I said at the end of the rule above that the rule is really just prolonging what will eventually happen anyway.

When, in the example, Thurag is reduced to -4 HP, he would collapse and be dying that round.

This stun rule gives Thurad a chance (he's got to pass the Fort Save), to get out of the situation. But, (A) his defense is lowered as he is considered flat footed, and (B) he is very limited with the actions he can take. Standard actions will cause him damage, and he'll be no better off than if the rule wasn't used. Plus, chances are Thurad's attacker will just do more damage on him, rendering Thurag at -10 HP or so.

For some players in some circumstances, though, being able to move is all Thurag will need. It will be desperate, but the rule gives Thurag a slight opportunity to withdraw from the fight (if he is allowed by his attacker), get his wits about him, and shake himself out of the stun.

Also note that this really isn't a freebie, get-out-of-not-being-dead card, because Thurag, once the stun wears off, will be at only 1 HP--in a prime position to be stunned or killed again.

What this stun rule does is make the offical Zero Hit Point Disabled rule useful, in that it makes the rule come into play more often than the official rules state.

Under the official rules, it comes into play only when the PC is reduced to exactly 0 HP (which won't be very often). What I've basically done is changed it so that this rule comes into play more often.

That's all this stun rule does.

It sounds like you want to play D&D4. With the Surge mechanic, there's no end to the ability to "avoid dying".

Note that the Conan already have a lot of these save-your-life mechanics already built into the game.

When someone is reduced to negative HPs...

1 - They get a 10% chance of becoming stable.

2 - Healers have a better chance of stablizing the character.

3 - A Fate Point can be used for the Left For Dead rule, which automaticaly stabilizes the character for one hour.

That's three checks the character has to fail before he is considered "dead".

Why not use a rule that already exists and make it easier on your self. The Stunning Attack feat, if successful forces a FORT save (DC=10 + half lvl + STR mod) so that higher level and greater strength are the factor, rather than the damage roll, thus "double-dinging" the poor target.

I read that feat before I designed the Stun rule, and I didn't use it as a basis for my rule for two reasons:

1 - The purpose of the Stun rule is to increase the chance that the official Zero Hit Point Disabled rule is used more often. And, that's what the stun rule does.

2 - There is a symetry with the Massive Damage rule using the Fort Save. If the character is subject to Massive Damage, he throws a Fort Save vs a DC of 10+ half damage. Under my stun rule, it's the exact same save. It's fitting that the same save be used for both rules. (Cleaning rule design that way.)


Plus, characters can still use the Stun feat you mention if they want to.

You see, being stunned already exists, and it's only very, very mildly better than being disabled. (lol)

There are already several ways to be stunned written into the game via some feats and some sorcery. Note that stun isn't always handled the same. So, the way I'm handling another version of stun is in keeping with the other stun rules.





You know, Sutek, you haven't liked a single rule I've written.

 

[Sutek]

I'm not alone.

The game works fine and does need any augmentation to make it work better. In egard to the suggestions that you've made, I've stated why I feel they won't work properly, how they affect other aspects of the game that don't seem to have considered or attempted to indicate how the addded complexity with either slow down the game or otherwise cause friction. Don't get me wrong, I like your enthusiasm, but the simple fact remains that I think you are makin gup rules to be "grittty" when (a) your definition changes and (b) you wont try the game as it is written first to see that there's more than enough grit to go around.

However, no matter how much I disagree with your augmentations, keep in mind that there's an entire joke thread started about raising funds to get you a life...and I didn't start it, nor am I the only one posting in it.

I'm just the only person still up to the task of try to make you take a look at the RAW before you go mucking it up with a buch of house rules sight unseen.

I'm trying to be a helping hand, not just a contridictory crumudgeon...

 

[Thorvang]

I'm trying to be a helping hand, not just a contridictory crumudgeon...

Am I being a contradictory curmudgeon? :lol:

 

[Supplement Four]

In egard to the suggestions that you've made, I've stated why I feel they won't work properly, how they affect other aspects of the game that don't seem to have considered or attempted to indicate how the addded complexity with either slow down the game or otherwise cause friction.

I'm a veteran rules tweaker. For other games I've "tweaked", typically people adopt my rules, and I usually get "thank you" PMs. And, I know about the rule of unintended consequences--so, don't think I haven't been listening to your objects.

I'll change any tweak, in a heartbeat, if I realize it's a bad call.

It's all about running the best game for me and my players.

What you read as "changing my mind" is either you not understanding what I'm going for...or the weighing I'm doing with tweaks. I'll put it out there, munch on the idea for a day or so, then tweak it if needed.

These are just a couple of rules I want to start the game with. I'm sure more will pop up as we play. You probably won't believe me, but I am a fan of playing the game as close to the official rules as possible. It's just that I know I can write as well as the game designers (in fact, I've been asked to work on three games in the past)--and I don't mean that as "bragging" as it sounds. I'm just confident in my abilities. So, when I see something that needs tweaking, I tweak it.

I've said before that I am extremely impressed with what Mongoose has done with Conan. I think it's a brilliant adaptation.

And, really...c'mon. My tweaks haven't had a big impact on the game at all. I haven't changed a whole lot of it--not as much as you and others makes it sound.

I've read your criticisms closely (because I do want to find errors in my judgement, if indeed they are there), and I've found your comments to not be as viable as you think they are. That just may be a matter of opinion and play style.

I am going to take a look at Improved Movement, as you suggested, and, if indeed the AoO's that I added to the game are have an un-intended consequence, you'll see me remove them.

 

[rabindranath72]

I find your posts quite amusing, Supplement Four!
I am totally on the opposite side of what you want to do. I would strip d20 Conan down to 1/4th of the pages and the rules, if I had the time, rather than add more things
For example:
1) Remove feats. Or, better, only allow feats to those classes who have feats as a class ability (e.g. Track for barbarians and nomads, fighter feats etc.) Even then, shorten the list considerably.
2) Remove all the added meanings of AC and hit points beyond what they mean by their abstract definition. This would cut the combat chapter to half for roughly the same net effect.
3) Simplify combat.
4) Remove skills, or at least simplify their application.

 

[DigitalMage]

This rule is used when the character is at exactly 0 HP, but how many times in a game (or even a character's life time) will damage reduce the character to exactly 0 HP?

I thought this when playing D&D "why bother coming up with a specific rule for when you reach exactly 0 hp?". But having played more D&D now that status has come up more often than I expected and being awake and at least able to move has saved a character's life on more than one occassion.

During the stun rounds, the character is subject to the official 0 HP rule above. If he takes a standard action, he will be reduced to -1 HP the next round.

I think you might need to clarify what you mean here. If a character is at -4 HP but acting stunned (i.e. subject to the 0 HP rule) and then takes a standard action is he then at -1 HP? -5 HP? Is he still subject to the 0HP rule or is he now unconscious? Perhaps he foregoes his 1 HP heal for the next round?

Other than that the rule seems okay, though for me adds a little too much complexity. Still, try it out and see how it plays.

 

[rabindranath72]

This might be interesting:
http://web.fisher.cx/robert/infogami/Classic_D&D_injury_table

 

[Krushnak]

So how does this stun rule work with the Die Hard feat?

 

[Supplement Four]

I find your posts quite amusing, Supplement Four!
I am totally on the opposite side of what you want to do. I would strip d20 Conan down to 1/4th of the pages and the rules, if I had the time, rather than add more things

Actually, I've always been a "less is better" type of gamer, and my favorite game of all time is Classic Traveller (very much a "stripped down" rules system).

I haven't played d20 in over 15 years because of the crunch. I don't like it.

But, I like Conan. And, I will admit that, if you're going to use the d20 game, Mongoose sure has done an excellent job adapting the d20 rules.

Imo, Conan is a stripped down version of cruncy d20 already.

I'm not a fan of d20, but I do realize that d20 does some some merits (mostly mechanical, not story-related merits).

 

[Supplement Four]

I think you might need to clarify what you mean here. If a character is at -4 HP but acting stunned (i.e. subject to the 0 HP rule) and then takes a standard action is he then at -1 HP? -5 HP? Is he still subject to the 0HP rule or is he now unconscious? Perhaps he foregoes his 1 HP heal for the next round?

For clarity...

If a stunned character is damaged while stun, he is no longer stunned. He is dying.

So, if a stunned character, at -4 HP, takes a standard action, he'll lose 1 HP, putting him at -5 HP. The stun has graduated to a more serious condition as the character collapses, dying, at -5 HP.

Note that the 0 HP rule (which is the stun condition under this house rule) allows a character to take a move action without taking damage.

Other than that the rule seems okay, though for me adds a little too much complexity. Still, try it out and see how it plays.

The key to keeping rules simple is having "triggers" in the game. That is: You don't think about a rule until some event or circumstance in the game "triggers" it.

In this case, the trigger is the character being reduced to 0 HP or below through normal means. When your character is going to 0 HP or the negatives, you think, "How can I save my character!"

And, the Stun rule is "triggered".

It's just like Massive Damage. That rule is triggered when 20+ points of damage is applied to a character from a single blow.

Well, this stun rule is triggered when the character reaches 0 HP or below.



But... I will have to playtest this rule--the reason being: The stun rule, as I have written it here, may not be providing enough "benefit" for it to be used in the game.

I'll see when we start the campaign.

 

[Supplement Four]

So how does this stun rule work with the Die Hard feat?

The Die Hard feat will work just like it does in the vanilla game. The feat "supercedes" the dying rule in the official rules, and thus, if using this stun rule, the Die Hard feat will supercede the stun rule too.

In game terms, the Die Hard feat will make the character somewhat immune to stun (as he is immune to being disabled in the official rules), allowing the character to fight until he drops.