Stateroom tonnage

[F33D]

Spun off from http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=53557&start=15


In my game standard staterooms take 6 tons. 3 tons for the room itself, 1 ton passageways, 1 ton for lounge/dining, 1 ton split between life support & food/water. Now, I don't charge players the insane costs per stateroom. They just get charged based on the level of food offered. Also, passage rates earn more per ton of stateroom than average freight rate/ton....

Here is an example stateroom IRL that is 13.5 square meters (3 tons).

 

[F33D]

This would be an example of a high passage stateroom. It is ~4.5 tons floor space so, 7.5 tons total allocation.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

For the first 3 1/2 years after graduating with my BA in Architecture, I worked for a Hospitality Architect. I must have cranked out 200 hotels in that time. Looks like a cross between a Hampton Inn and a Holiday Inn and Suites! You even have shades on either side of the "window" lol. Decent layout though.
What modeling program is this? All my deck plans are in simple 2D AutoCAD.

 

[F33D]

For the first 3 1/2 years after graduating with my BA in Architecture, I worked for a Hospitality Architect. I must have cranked out 200 hotels in that time. Looks like a cross between a Hampton Inn and a Holiday Inn and Suites! You even have shades on either side of the "window" lol. Decent layout though.
What modeling program is this? All my deck plans are in simple 2D AutoCAD.

I didn't draw these. They are from 2 Cruise-line sites. YOU may have drawn these :mrgreen:

 

[phavoc]

Railcars also fit into the cramped, but livable quarters issue. I had posted some images a while ago, but you can find out what Amtrak says you can stay in here:

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=AM_Content_C&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241267399802

 

[Jak Nazryth]

This look closer to traveller sized staterooms.
One of the things that I have always disliked about some of the canon sizes of state rooms and common space was the fact that it was so cramped. I have mentioned this is several posts over the last couple of years and don't want to sound like a broken record, but this all goes back to Mark Miller original concept of what he wanted Traveller to be... Steam powered tramp freighter in space. Yes the tramp freighters had cramped living conditions and they were slow, spending around a week or more at a time on the sea lanes slowly chugging to far off dangerous and adventurous ports of call, but there is one huge difference. Passengers and sometime lazy crew members spent much of their time on the open deck in the fresh air. The galleys were small and cramped but the passengers had almost the entire footprint of the ship to stroll, read, sun, whack golf balls into the ocean, shoot skeet, (shoot silent films while traveling to skull island) etc...
Look at some of the commons spaces in most of the cannon free and far traders. They are tiny. Take some masking tape and "create" a typical room on your living room floor, or imagine a typical traveller common space that includes your living room, dining room, kitchen, closet, and maybe a first aid station all crammed into a space about the size of an average family room. Now fill it with a bunch of strangers, lock all your doors and windows, and stay there for 1 full week! lol.
I would rather travel in cold storage. lol , that is if I didn't have a 20% chance of death each jump! lol
But there is no getting around it. That's just the way it is. I'm glad I'm sitting at a table rolling dice pretending I'm spending a week in jump...

 

[Lemnoc]

This look closer to traveller sized staterooms.
One of the things that I have always disliked about some of the canon sizes of state rooms and common space was the fact that it was so cramped.

I guess I have always leaned the opposite. I’m not fond of the whole Palace In Space on exhibit most Traveller deck plans, with their massive play centers, romper rooms, massage parlors and echoing conference auditoriums. Every square inch on a working starship should be paid for dearly, every wall should be erected with the notion that explosive decompression is but inches away, every molecule of air and water and fuel should be accounted for on the balance sheet, and a lot of thought should go into things like ducting and access. Any crew member who won’t gladly give up his soft, snuggy bunk to store some sellable item needs to go out the airlock.

Typically one of the most parsimonious areas on your typical Traveller ship is the engine room, and that is about the only area I’d consider reasonable for size. You should be able to take apart an entire engine in there and the thing should be packed with with lifts and jacks and cable pullers.

 

[Dave Chase]

Each square is 1.5 meter

Dave Chase

 

[dragoner]

One of the things that I have always disliked about some of the canon sizes of state rooms and common space was the fact that it was so cramped.

Might be cultural though, I've seen most people in the world live in spaces that to many Americans would seem "cramped and crowded" to say the least.

 

[Dave Chase]

Bathroom also known as freshers on ships

Dave Chase

 

[CosmicGamer]

I always thought it odd that every stateroom had the luxury of it's own fresher. While I love living now in a house with less people and more than one bathroom, for some time we lived with 9 people and one bathroom. Unless these are private jacuzzi tubs to lounge in, why does everybody, or two people at most, need their own fresher? And why isn't there public freshers so that you don't have to go all the way back to your stateroom from, say engineering or the bridge?

 

[Dave Chase]

I always thought it odd that every stateroom had the luxury of it's own fresher. While I love living now in a house with less people and more than one bathroom, for some time we lived with 9 people and one bathroom. Unless these are private jacuzzi tubs to lounge in, why does everybody, or two people at most, need their own fresher? And why isn't there public freshers so that you don't have to go all the way back to your stateroom from, say engineering or the bridge?

When I design my ships, it depends on what they are.

Passenger quarters most always have freshers, but the general crew don't.

Low end freight haulers have a shared fresher with most of the crew but not the Capt and Nav they have a fresher that they share between them.

Mid to upper freight haulers and lower level trader ships have a fresher that is shared between two crew quarters.

Mid to upper level traderships have a fresher in each quarter, whether bunk bed or single.

Military have shared freshers for the Marines, and lower level crew members.

Senior Enlisted and lower level officers have a fresher that they share with another or a smaller room with a fresher on the end (example in the Various Quarters image that is 1.5 m by 4.5 meters)

Officers have fresher to them selves.

Dave Chase

 

[F33D]

This look closer to traveller sized staterooms.
One of the things that I have always disliked about some of the canon sizes of state rooms and common space was the fact that it was so cramped. I have mentioned this is several posts over the last couple of years and don't want to sound like a broken record, but this all goes back to Mark Miller original concept of what he wanted Traveller to be...

Yep. I pretty much ignore most of it and determine what would actually happen based on market forces. Low Passage wouldn't exist with even a 1% death rate so, I dropped that insanity and made it a viable option for more than just those condemned to death on the planet they are taking passage from.

If you are charging a significant % of a middle class income to travel to another planet in a cabin, you get more than a closet to sleep upright in...

 

[Jak Nazryth]

I always thought it odd that every stateroom had the luxury of it's own fresher. While I love living now in a house with less people and more than one bathroom, for some time we lived with 9 people and one bathroom. Unless these are private jacuzzi tubs to lounge in, why does everybody, or two people at most, need their own fresher? And why isn't there public freshers so that you don't have to go all the way back to your stateroom from, say engineering or the bridge?

In GURPS Traveller, and I think T20... not sure it's been years since I cracked open T20... the ship design rules REQUIRE public freshers on ships that transport passengers; based on a certain amount of staterooms. Can't remember the numbers, but It's something like for every 20 cabins you need at least 1 public fresher.. something like that. So if you have 21 staterooms you will need at least 2 public freshers. I think the same thing happens on modern cruise ships.

 

[phavoc]

Traveller starships kind of fit the pattern of the early 1900's, up to about 1930. This was pretty much the Golden Age of ships. The passenger liners of that era would fit into the Traveller setting quite well. If you had the money (and people did), you could have a massive suite, with servants, fine food, etc. And if you didn't you bought steerage and were glad for what you got. And there was everything else in between.

The large liners had many amenities to take care of their passengers during the voyages (often around a week for transatlantic or transpacific). Older, smaller ships were slower, had less amenities, went to smaller ports of call, etc. And you had tramp freighters (free or subsidized ones in Traveller) that went to the very small ports to drop off and pick up cargoes.

What we really haven't seen in Traveller is the concept of the large liner. Of course, from a PC perspective, you don't really have much interaction with ships over 2k displacement tons. And the smaller liners aren't going to have the much wider range of amenities that the big (10k or higher) liners would.

But we already know from history that the large liners are going to handle the traffic to/from the major population hubs. Maybe if people are interested everyone can post their ideas/plans to the board for sharing?

 

[Jeraa]

In GURPS Traveller, and I think T20... not sure it's been years since I cracked open T20... the ship design rules REQUIRE public freshers on ships that transport passengers; based on a certain amount of staterooms. Can't remember the numbers, but It's something like for every 20 cabins you need at least 1 public fresher.. something like that. So if you have 21 staterooms you will need at least 2 public freshers. I think the same thing happens on modern cruise ships.

In T20, all staterooms have freshers already. You need 1 fresher for every 10 passengers/crew staying in lesser accommodations (like the 2 ton small cabins). If all you had were staterooms though, public freshers weren't required.

 

[F33D]

Traveller starships kind of fit the pattern of the early 1900's, up to about 1930. This was pretty much the Golden Age of ships. The passenger liners of that era would fit into the Traveller setting quite well.

Actually, not. As the low TL was a MAJOR & primary consideration for lack basics like toilets & bathrooms, refrigerators, etc. (see lowest class travel ship travel at TL 7 for contrast) So, other that route length, there isn't much commonality.

 

[phavoc]

Traveller starships kind of fit the pattern of the early 1900's, up to about 1930. This was pretty much the Golden Age of ships. The passenger liners of that era would fit into the Traveller setting quite well.

Actually, not. As the low TL was a MAJOR & primary consideration for lack basics like toilets & bathrooms, refrigerators, etc. (see lowest class travel ship travel at TL 7 for contrast) So, other that route length, there isn't much commonality.

Why would you think that? Ships constructed in the late 1890's were capable of 22 knots, were sumptuously appointed and had toilets and bathrooms. Look up ships like the Kaiser Wilhelm, Deutschland, Mauretania and Lusitania (to name just a few). These ships were fast and well-appointed, and built at TL4-5. The Kaiser Wilhelm was 24,000 Disp and carried 800 people in third class steerage alone. The Mauretania and Lusitania were 32,000 Disp tons and could carry 500 1st class, 500 2nd class and 1100 third class with 800 crew.

Certainly there was a lack of amenities for the poor bastards in 3rd class, but certainly not for the 1st and 2nd class. They traveled pretty damn well.

 

[F33D]

Why would you think that? Ships constructed in the late 1890's were capable of 22 knots, were sumptuously appointed and had toilets and bathrooms.

That was, at the time, amenities not available to average people at home. Most people used out houses, hand pumped water, etc. You were referring to "steerage" passage and Trav ships. In Trav universe ship cabins are going to be appointed with at least what most people have at home. (like steerage class) So, your example doesn't fit.

 

[phavoc]

Why would you think that? Ships constructed in the late 1890's were capable of 22 knots, were sumptuously appointed and had toilets and bathrooms.

That was, at the time, amenities not available to average people at home. Most people used out houses, hand pumped water, etc. You were referring to "steerage" passage and Trav ships. In Trav universe ship cabins are going to be appointed with at least what most people have at home. (like steerage class) So, your example doesn't fit.

I'll agree with you that lots of people did not have the modern amenities available on the most advanced passenger liners.

But I don't believe your analogy is correct. Spaceships won't start until at least TL8. At TL8 you have electricity, running water, gravity (from spin-based habitats), air conditioning.

And 'steerage' above TL9 isn't going to be anywhere near as bad as it was in 1900. They might have smallish cabins, but certainly they'll be appointed as well as cruise ships today.

In any event I was referring to the concept of how people traveled the seas in the early 1900s vs Traveller era ships. It wasn't meant to be an exact reference link. But since we don't live in that era, all we can do is draw upon history for real-world examples to push forward into the future (just like Miller did when he created Traveller in the first place)