Star Fleet squadron boxes

[Spence]

A question about the miniatures squadron boxes.

Will they actually contain a balanced 'squadron' that can be played versus another set? For example I buy the Fed Squadron set and get something like a Heavy Cruiser supported by 2 destroyers and maybe a few frigates and if I buy the Klingon box I get a D7, a couple of equivalent destroyers and matching point value frigates? I paint and place both sets on the game table and can play a head on battle that is balanced and makes a great intro to the game.

Or will they still be the old "one of each ship" style box sets that ADB put out in the past that seemed to be aimed at the model builder out to collect one copy of everything and totally ignores the concept of squadron.

I looked at the ADB site and saw the 2500 line, and they do look like they will be good mini's. But I can't find anything that indicates what the contents will be for a Squadron Box or a Fleet Box.

I game at my FLGS and one of the biggest reasons the the existing mini games that are played have been popular is a new player can buy a mini box and get a balanced playable unit. When I tried getting SFC going a couple of years ago, they were all ticked. Not at the rules, but because of the 'useless waste' figures that were included in the boxes for no apparent reason. Interest was stillborn.

So I guess my question boils down to this. Will the composition of the Squadron and Fleet boxes be thought out logically and point balanced so each one makes some kind of sense and can be paired off against other equivalent boxes. Or are they to be collector sets containing one each of certain mini's?

 

[Rambler]

Spencer -The Small Squadron Boxes will be identical in content and box number to the current Federation Commander Squadron Boxes. So if you look on ADBs Web Store you will see what is already in the first 9 Squadron Boxs. That said Squadron Box 1 will be a Fed Dreadnaught, a Heavy Battle Cruise, a Heavy Cruiser, a Old Light Cruiser and a Frigate. Squadron Box 2 will be a Klingon C8 Dreadnaught, a C7 Heavy Battle Cruiser, a D7 Battle Cruiser, a D6 Heavy Cruise ( which they used as a light cruiser) and a F5 frigate. And so on and so forth.

As far as I know the 16 Ship Fleet Boxes have not been set yet nor has the composition of how many ships will be sold in the Blister Packs. Just the price of $99 for 16 ships $30 for 5 ships and $15 for most blisters.

Now with all of that said some of the Squadron Boxes are going to be just plain weird. Some like Boxes 1, 2, 7 and 9 should be somewhat balanced some will contain weird combos like a Dreadnaught, Battlecruiser, a Destroyer a Base and a Feighter.

 

[Greg Smith]

That said Squadron Box 1 will be a Fed Dreadnaught, a Heavy Battle Cruise, a Heavy Cruiser, a Old Light Cruiser and a Frigate. Squadron Box 2 will be a Klingon C8 Dreadnaught, a C7 Heavy Battle Cruiser, a D7 Battle Cruiser, a D6 Heavy Cruise ( which they used as a light cruiser) and a F5 frigate.

Almost identical points in both. (as per current playtest points).

 

[Spence]

Arrgghhh....

That would be bad in my area.

The current squadron box contents is what killed SFC here. A lot of the gamers here are either history buffs, ex-military or have been around military and they simply don't buy a squadron in a fleet oriented game being a random assortment of 'one of each'. The only set I ever found to make any sense was the Kzinti Carrier Group box.

For myself I know to purchase only single figs to build out my fleet, but several people ordered the 'fleet' boxes. They were very ticked off with the contents and the group went from 7 people and 5 more interested to just me. Warmachine is the big mini game here at present. When a new player buys a battle box that are assured they will have a playable unit on the board. And yes I know the old backhanded argument of "buyer beware" and "they should have looked at the content". But if you really want to sell something, the product should be usable out of the box, not buy the box and then a half dozen extra to achieve some kind of balance.

I've always liked the scale of the Starline mini's. Big enough for detail, but not so big as to look stupid on a smaller game table.

Oh well, I hope I can do something, but it doesn't look good. Gamers are finicky at best, but if they cannot trust the boxed set to contain a usable 'out of the box' force they will go elsewhere. Maybe if I can field enough mini's to hook them into the game before anyone actually buys the mini's and forewarn them, I can head off a repeat of the earlier disaster...

 

[Iain McGhee]

Yes (to Greg), although it still seems like an odd mix of ships in each case, more so if you intend to use two or more boxes as a larger fleet. Works better if you add the corresponding Booster Pack (same as the SL2500 Reinforcements ?) IMO.

 

[Ben2]

I think the fleet boxes offer an excellent deal on the core of your fleet, and you then add a couple of blisters (frigates and light cruisers or destroyers for instance) and suddenly you've got a pretty decent sized fleet. Personally I don't plan on using more than one dreadnought, so Squadron box plus blisters is how I'd go if I don't like the Fleet box contents.

The Noble Armada fleet boxes are small ship heavy and you need to buy extra cruisers and dreadnoughts, while the SFU squadron boxes are big ship heavy and you need to buy extra destroyers and frigates.

 

[Iain McGhee]

I believe they're also going to release the Border Boxes, which might be another option if you're planning on building a few fleets. Same as the ADB ones, about 20 ships split over 3 fleets plus some extras. I like the mix of ships per race better as a fleet core too, although it remains to be seen what mix is in the new fleet boxes.

 

[Spence]

Yes (to Greg), although it still seems like an odd mix of ships in each case, more so if you intend to use two or more boxes as a larger fleet. Works better if you add the corresponding Booster Pack (same as the SL2500 Reinforcements ?) IMO.

I understand your point. But it really doesn't do anything for the new gamer that wants to start the game.

"Huh? Why does a independent squadron have a dreadnought without a thought out escort? The beginning game requires Dreadnoughts? This make no sense...."

I think the fleet boxes offer an excellent deal on the core of your fleet, and you then add a couple of blisters (frigates and light cruisers or destroyers for instance) and suddenly you've got a pretty decent sized fleet. Personally I don't plan on using more than one dreadnought, so Squadron box plus blisters is how I'd go if I don't like the Fleet box contents.

The Noble Armada fleet boxes are small ship heavy and you need to buy extra cruisers and dreadnoughts, while the SFU squadron boxes are big ship heavy and you need to buy extra destroyers and frigates.

Which reinforces my point. If you buy a Squadron box, you don't get a playable unit. You get pieces you must then fill out to make playable.

But enough said. I can sense the "this way or the highway" subtext :wink:

This has been the response and self fulfilling prophesy everywhere I've been over the last decade. SFB, SFC, SF:Armada and ACTA:SF to follow.

Good luck all.

 

[Greg Smith]

The squadron boxes absolutely had to follow the existing ADB squadron boxes. I guess they will replace the existing Starline 2400 ones (though I know the 2400 miniatures will still be available).

The fleet boxes are the way Mongoose sells introductory fleets. They tend to have a wider selection of models.

Noble Armada fleet boxes contained: 2 scouts, 4 frigates, 2 galliots, a carrier with fighters and 2 destroyers. A fairly balanced fleet to start with.

Babylon 5 ACTA 2e fleet boxes all contained 5 points at battle level, and contained a variety of ships depending on the fleet, but usually a good fleet compostion with 4 smaller ship, 4 medium and 2 or 3 larger. (B5 naval nomenclature was iffy).

 

[scoutdad]

Spence: The ships in the individual squadron boxes may seem like an odd collection, but there is a madness to the method.
When Federation Commander was first released, a conscious decision was made by ADB regarding the content of the squadron boxes. SB #1 contains the 5 Federation ships found in Federation Commander: Klingon Border, SB #2 contains the 5 Klingon ships, and SB #3 contains the 5 Kzinti ships. If you purchase Squadron boxes 1, 2, and 3 along with Border Box #1 - you will have a miniature to represent every counter found in FC: KB.
Squadron boxes 4, 5, and 6 combine with Border Box #2 provide you with a miniature for every counter found in Federation Commander: Klingon Attack.
And so on all the way through the latest release.

When the Starmada version of the game was released; one of the requirements was that the initial ships included had to match those in the initial Fed Comm releases.
Same thing for ACTA :SF. The ships included are a one for one match-up to those in Federation Commander: Klingon Border, Klingon Attack, Romulan Border, and Romulan Attack.

This was done to enable the same Squadron Boxes to be used for every game system. Is it a perfect system? Probably not, but since retailers detest having multiple SKU numbers; it does allow a single collection of boxed sets to be used for 4 different games.

Now, Mongoose is going to release the Starline 2500 miniatures in Squadron Boxes that match the previous releases (in fact, they have to do it that way). They are also releasign a series of Fleet Boxes. The content of these boxes have not yet been announced, but after playing the game multiple times - I'd be willing to bet a fair amount of money that they will apply more towards ACTA than the other games. They will most likely provide a force that is playable right out of the box. And will also most likely form a good, strong core of a large fleet that can be built by adding a Squadron box or two or by filling in the gaps in your own preferred play style with individual ships.

 

[Jean]

Spence, I think with the current plans, everyone will find a set that suits their needs. One of every type of ship makes some folks happy. Others, like you, will probably like the fleet boxes. Still others will want their favorite ship and will like the blister packs.

I'm sorry you feel that folks weren't listening to your needs and those gamers like you. I hope you'll be able to let folks know how to get the ship selection they want.

Jean
Who is wearing her marketing hat

Quick edit -- SFC? I'm not sure which game you are referring to.

 

[scoutdad]

Jean: Based on context, I'm pretty sure he's referring to Federation Commander.

SFB - Star Fleet Battles
SFC - Acronym for Star Fleet Command computer game, but probably meant Fed Comm.
Starmada - Klingon Armada et al
ACTA - A Call to Arms.

 

[Iron Domokun]

I think Spence has a good point, that miniatures-focused games tend to market the miniatures differently to the way that ADB has been doing it. OTOH, Star Fleet Battles and Federation Commander, which the minis lines were created to support, aren't really miniatures games but hex games that you can play with minis instead of counters if you like. Most minis-focused games tend to be rules-light and have a lot of units/figures on the table at once, whereas board games tend to be rules-heavy and will often have fewer units on the table. (When I played Warhamster 40K, I sometimes played against Imperial Guard armies with 100+ infantry. The biggest Federation Commander game I've played had four ships on each side.)

ACTA:SF is well and truly a miniatures game (as is Starmada: Star Fleet Armada) and it seems that the existing minis packages don't serve those players as well as they could. I do understand that retailers hate the proliferation of SKUs though, so I don't know what can be done. Perhaps a limited number of "battlegroup sets" (one per major empire?) could be done: ships which would comprise a 550-point SFB battlegroup or something like that.

 

[Spence]

Now, Mongoose is going to release the Starline 2500 miniatures in Squadron Boxes that match the previous releases (in fact, they have to do it that way). They are also releasign a series of Fleet Boxes. The content of these boxes have not yet been announced, but after playing the game multiple times - I'd be willing to bet a fair amount of money that they will apply more towards ACTA than the other games. They will most likely provide a force that is playable right out of the box. And will also most likely form a good, strong core of a large fleet that can be built by adding a Squadron box or two or by filling in the gaps in your own preferred play style with individual ships.

I certainly am hoping the Fleet Boxes are aimed that way.

Spence, I think with the current plans, everyone will find a set that suits their needs. One of every type of ship makes some folks happy. Others, like you, will probably like the fleet boxes. Still others will want their favorite ship and will like the blister packs.

I'm sorry you feel that folks weren't listening to your needs and those gamers like you. I hope you'll be able to let folks know how to get the ship selection they want.

Jean
Who is wearing her marketing hat

Quick edit -- SFC? I'm not sure which game you are referring to.

@Jean, no need to apologize to me :wink: The SFB universe has been ignoring my input since the late 70's when the game came out in the pocket size :mrgreen:

And it isn't that people cannot or won't buy their chosen fleet by blister and such. They just usually get torqued when they order a "Squadron/Fleet Box" (or whatever you want to name it) and just get a group of ships stuck together because of the publication order rather than a squadron/fleet organized as an actual effective battle group. There is no warning on the box and in the description that says "this is not an effective battlegroup" or "If you buy this you will need to buy different figures to fill the gaping holes in the formation" :wink: Generally with mini games currently selling, you can either buy individual unit/figures (equating to a single blister) or a battle/army box that includes a self contained force that can be played successfully without additional units. I'm just saying.....

Jean: Based on context, I'm pretty sure he's referring to Federation Commander.

SFB - Star Fleet Battles
SFC - Acronym for Star Fleet Command computer game, but probably meant Fed Comm.
Starmada - Klingon Armada et al
ACTA - A Call to Arms.

@Jean & scoutdad

About SFC, my bad. scoutdad is correct. My local game group got in the habit of calling Federation Commander by the name Star Fleet Commander. I don't even remember the reason, but it stuck.


Anyway, I really hope ACTA:SF takes off and does well. I really enjoy a good space combat game and always liked the SFU from before Paramount did their thing.

As for mini's I will just need to get the rules first and read them closely to understand how the ships balance out. Then get with everyone at my FLGS to make sure they understand the content of the boxes before they order. That way we can avoid the WTF reaction that was so bad when we tried to kickstart Fed Cmdr.

 

[Iron Domokun]

"Squadron/Fleet Box" (or whatever you want to name it)

A point here: There will be two different products (or series of products) called "squadron boxes" and "fleet boxes".

A "squadron box" is the same as the squadron boxes that Spence had issues with. They will be called things like "Squadron Box #1." The squadron boxes are designed to match up with the ship cards and boosters from Federation Commander.

A "Fleet Box" is a different animal. It will have 16 ships from one empire, and a fast-play rulebook for A Call To Arms: Star Fleet. Priced at US$99.95. There will be a Federation Fleet Box, a Klingon Fleet Box, et cetera. I think Matthew Sprange posted a tentative list of what would be in it a while back but I can't find the post. It seemed to have a good force of cruisers rounded out by a few bigger and smaller ships. That really looks like it's intended to be playable straight from the box.

So if you want a straight-from-the-box playable force, it's the fleet box you want.

 

[AdrianH]

That's almost succeeded in forcing me out of the game, then.

I had originally planned to get one each of the Federation, Klingon and Romulan squadron boxes, giving me a small playable group for each faction. Based on how those played, I would then decide which one to expand further.

The Romulans are out, partly because of the bulges on the underside of the War Eagle and partly because the cloaking rules have been watered down. The Klingon squadron box is out because neither the D6 nor D7 look like a proper D7. And now it turns out that the Federation squadron box is not playable either. I am definitely not gambling the equivalent of $99.95 on the off chance that the Federation is playable, especially until there is official confirmation that the Constitution without aft phasers will be listed as an official ship.

So it looks like I'm down to buying a few individual ships (Federation from Starline 2500, Klingon perhaps from Shapeways), seeing if the game is at all capable of representing Star Trek, and deciding whether to proceed from there...

 

[MongooseMatt]

Which reinforces my point. If you buy a Squadron box, you don't get a playable unit. You get pieces you must then fill out to make playable.

For CTA, you do - certainly enough to get the flavour of the fleet and play anything up to mid-sizeish games.

However, this is also exactly why we did the fleet sets. Everything you need in one of those to get you started, including a mini rulebook!

 

[MongooseMatt]

I had originally planned to get one each of the Federation, Klingon and Romulan squadron boxes, giving me a small playable group for each faction. Based on how those played, I would then decide which one to expand further.

That is exactly how we are treating them for CTA: SF.

The Romulans are out, partly because of the bulges on the underside of the War Eagle and partly because the cloaking rules have been watered down.

They most certainly have not - they give a real 'sub hunt' feel to the games and, properly used, Romulans are _lethal_.

Not entirely sure what is wrong with 'bulges'...

The Klingon squadron box is out because neither the D6 nor D7 look like a proper D7.

Wait until you see the actual miniatures of these ships - they look just the part.

especially until there is official confirmation that the Constitution without aft phasers will be listed as an official ship.

I am afraid that is a little _too_ specific.

So it looks like I'm down to buying a few individual ships (Federation from Starline 2500, Klingon perhaps from Shapeways), seeing if the game is at all capable of representing Star Trek, and deciding whether to proceed from there...

All well and good, but remember many of the ships on Shapeways are of questionable legality.

 

[AxisFan67]

I, personally, don't mind how they are doing the fleet releases. It has proved to be an incredible sale model for ADB. I don't know the actual statistics but a friend of mine who is involved with playtesting for ADB said, after the release of Federation Commander especially, that miniature sales went up exponentially for ADB.

If you look at thing practically there will always be someone looking for odd miniatures. If you pull out the ones you don't intend to use and sell or trade them that will help you get the miniatures you do want. You will always have the option of buying individual blisters to build your fleet in its entirety or just to fill out what you need.

I can't wait to get my hands on the first boxes.

 

[MarkDawg]

That's almost succeeded in forcing me out of the game, then.

I had originally planned to get one each of the Federation, Klingon and Romulan squadron boxes, giving me a small playable group for each faction. Based on how those played, I would then decide which one to expand further.

The Romulans are out, partly because of the bulges on the underside of the War Eagle and partly because the cloaking rules have been watered down. The Klingon squadron box is out because neither the D6 nor D7 look like a proper D7. And now it turns out that the Federation squadron box is not playable either. I am definitely not gambling the equivalent of $99.95 on the off chance that the Federation is playable, especially until there is official confirmation that the Constitution without aft phasers will be listed as an official ship.

So it looks like I'm down to buying a few individual ships (Federation from Starline 2500, Klingon perhaps from Shapeways), seeing if the game is at all capable of representing Star Trek, and deciding whether to proceed from there...

Look IMHO it's a hobby and If you want to get every mini in an enter line of one army in most systems it's going to cost you well over 100$. In my Chaos Deamon army I have 2 models that are more than the Fleet box!

How do you know that these boxes are not playable? Are you going to a tourney? I sure you and your mates can come to an understanding.

If you want a Constitution with aft Phasers make it up Bro! it's a mini wargame!