Spell Resistance vs Neutralise Magic

[PhilHibbs]

I think this has been covered before, but I want to go over it again.

Spell Resistance has a Magnitude of 1, but will resist a spell with less Magnitude than the Grimoire/10.

Neutralise Magic has a Magnitude of 1, but will remove a spell with less Magnitude than the Grimoire/10.

It's a variant of the classic "unstoppable force" vs "immovable object".

I think it's been stated that Neutralise Magic wins in this instance. The Spell Resistance counts as a Magnitude 1 spell and gets blown away.

So, what if the Spell Resistance has Magnitude? Is that a worthwhile thing for a sorceror to do?

Lets say I have 80 in Grimoire and Manipulation. My skill gives me resistance against up to 8 point spells, but if I put all the manipulation into Magnitude, I can resist a 9-point Neutralise, so an equivalent skill sorceror or divine caster can't touch me.

Am I making sense? Is the outcome here that two equally-skilled sorcerors, if they have time to get Spell Resistance up with Magnitude, are completely immune to each other?

 

[PhilHibbs]

Another interpretation is that because Neutralise Magic ignores the protective aspect of Spell Resistance, it just gets rid of any other smaller-Magnitude spells. Opinions? If a sorceror casts Enhance INT on herself with just duration, then casts Spell Resistance with Magnitude, does the Spell Resistance prevent the Enhance INT from being dispelled?

Also, does putting the Spell Resistance on a Protective Ward change the equation? In that instance, I think it *would* stop any incoming Neutralise Magic cast at a target inside the ward, but anyone targetting the ward itself would take it down easily unless it had Magnitude.

 

[Mixster]

I would rule spell resistance takes precedence.

Spell resistance says:
A magical ward which blocks any incoming spell of up to 1 magnitude per 10% of the casters sorcery (grimoire) skill. [...]

While neutralise magic says:
[...]It works by dismissing the most powerful spell it can act on [...] then continues to dismiss the next most powerful spell it can still affect. [...]

So if you have One magnitude 2 spell (lets say enhance or a common magic), and then cast spell resistance, would neutralise magic ignore the spell resistance altogether and just remove the magnitude 2 spell? I don't think so. Thus it must get through the spell resistance by having a high enough magnitude.

However, for fun, I'd probably make it an opposed Sorcery (grimoire) check.

 

[PhilHibbs]

However, for fun, I'd probably make it an opposed Sorcery (grimoire) check.

Seems like an OK idea at first, but how would that extend to other magic systems? The potency of a sorcery spell scales with Grimoire, but the potency of Divine scales with Pact, so would you use that, or the casting chance Lore? Common Magic does not scale with skill at all, so how would you match Countermagic 4 with 55% Common Magic skill against a 50%-skill Spell Resistance?

 

[PhilHibbs]

If I cast Countermagic Shield 3 and Coordination 4 on myself, and you cast Neutralise Magic with Grimoire 80%, would you switch around the order that you handle the spells in, so it first has to take down the Countermagic and only then can it take the Coordination down?

 

[Mixster]

Seems like an OK idea at first, but how would that extend to other magic systems? The potency of a sorcery spell scales with Grimoire, but the potency of Divine scales with Pact, so would you use that, or the casting chance Lore? Common Magic does not scale with skill at all, so how would you match Countermagic 4 with 55% Common Magic skill against a 50%-skill Spell Resistance?

True, this is probably why RAW doesn't use that idea.

If I cast Countermagic Shield 3 and Coordination 4 on myself, and you cast Neutralise Magic with Grimoire 80%, would you switch around the order that you handle the spells in, so it first has to take down the Countermagic and only then can it take the Coordination down?

Not by RAW, no. This is what I'd rule happens (sticking to RAW as I read it):

Neutralise magic tries to affect you, Countermagic Shield goes into effect and checks for magnitude.
Three possible outcomes. If Neutralise has Magnitude 3, Countermagic Shield and Neutralise goes, that's from the rules on Countermagic shield, if Neutralise has Magnitude 2, it is negated by countermagic shield, no effect. If Neutralise has Magnitude 4 or more, it negates countermagic shield (due to the ruling on countermagic shield), and then proceeds to remove Coordination.

So I wouldn't reverse it in any way, I'd just apply spell resistance or Countermagic Shield before I applied Countermagic or Neutralise Magic. Which fixes all the problems, and is RAW IMO.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Three possible outcomes. If Neutralise has Magnitude 3, Countermagic Shield and Neutralise goes, that's from the rules on Countermagic shield, if Neutralise has Magnitude 2, it is negated by countermagic shield, no effect. If Neutralise has Magnitude 4 or more, it negates countermagic shield (due to the ruling on countermagic shield), and then proceeds to remove Coordination.

Lets assume the Neutralise only has Magnitude 1, all the manipulations go into Range and Targets, so by this logic it gets blocked by the Countermagic Shield. If it has Magnitude of 4 or more, it knocks down the Countermagic shield and still has its full potency from the Grimoire/10 un-used.

*Update* Therefore I think Neutralise Magic has to be treated differently, and hit the Countermagic Shield first followed by any other spells.

 

[Mixster]

Three possible outcomes. If Neutralise has Magnitude 3, Countermagic Shield and Neutralise goes, that's from the rules on Countermagic shield, if Neutralise has Magnitude 2, it is negated by countermagic shield, no effect. If Neutralise has Magnitude 4 or more, it negates countermagic shield (due to the ruling on countermagic shield), and then proceeds to remove Coordination.

Lets assume the Neutralise only has Magnitude 1, all the manipulations go into Range and Targets, so by this logic it gets blocked by the Countermagic Shield. If it has Magnitude of 4 or more, it knocks down the Countermagic shield and still has its full potency from the Grimoire/10 un-used.

*Update* Therefore I think Neutralise Magic has to be treated differently, and hit the Countermagic Shield first followed by any other spells.

Yeah, just as if it was wrack with 4 magnitude, then it would knock down countermagic shield, and still have full potency on the guy who hid behind it. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Yeah, just as if it was wrack with 4 magnitude, then it would knock down countermagic shield, and still have full potency on the guy who hid behind it. Makes perfect sense to me.

So it's not that the Neutralise affects the Countermagic Shield or the Spell Resistance first, but that the Countermagic Shield or Spell Resistance tries to stop it first. That contradicts what Loz said, which is that the Neutralise Magic wins against a Spell Resistance. In order for that to be the case, you have to ignore the protective nature of the defensive magic when dealing with dispelling magics.

Aah, I just found another old thread that clarifies it:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=43431&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Neutralise always takes precedence. If the Neutralise Magic can affect the Magnitude of the Spell Resistance it neutralises it. No roll is required.
As always however, if you like tweaking/interpreting the rules slightly differently then feel free to play it anyway you want.

So according to Pete, in my example earlier, the Coordination goes down first, then the Countermagic Shield, then if there is another 1-point spell then it goes down as well.

 

[PhilHibbs]

It follows from this logic that Spell Resistance, Countermagic Shield, etc. only protect the target of the spell, they do not protect themselves or the other spells that are on the target. Actually, if you start off with this assumption then it all makes sense as written.