Spacecraft Design Crew Requirement Medic

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

I am going through CRB 1st ed./MBR cobbling together a rough spreadsheet and I have reached the Crew Requirement on p. 113.

I have a small issue with the Minimum requirement for the medic being listed as none when the minimum requirement for a Navigator can be fulfilled by running an Expert Astronavigation program.

In CT LBB 2 1977/1981 p. 16 one medic is required on starships >= 200 tons plus there must be at least one medic per one hundred twenty passengers.

At the very least the minimum require, in my opinion, would be a Medkit, CRB 1st ed./MBR p. 93, at the appropriate TL. I would have suggested an Autodoc, CRB 1st ed./MBR p. 95, but the device is available at TL 12.

 

[AndrewW]

It's one per 120 in the new version.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AndrewW,

It's one per 120 in the new version.

Thank you for the information and in my opinion the requirement still does not make sense since to my knowledge most of the rule sets do not count them as passengers. My understanding of the currently written CRB 1st ed./MRB rules and the new HG design rules mean that a ship requiring a crew of one hundred twenty not carrying passengers by the current rules does not require a medic.

While typing this reply another alternative occurred to me that would, I think, resolve the minimum medic requirement of none of one per one hundred twenty passengers is the require a crew member having a secondary of Medic/0 or Medic/1 skill rating coupled with a medkit kept in the ship's locker.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Medic ... 1 per 120 crew and passengers

The crew requirement are a bit vague and more like gentle guidelines, but I think the assumption is that you round up so you need at least 1 medic (again, as a guideline).

 

[AndrewW]

Hello AndrewW,

It's one per 120 in the new version.

Thank you for the information and in my opinion the requirement still does not make sense since to my knowledge most of the rule sets do not count them as passengers. My understanding of the currently written CRB 1st ed./MRB rules and the new HG design rules mean that a ship requiring a crew of one hundred twenty not carrying passengers by the current rules does not require a medic.

Commercial:
1 per 120 crew and passengers
Military:
1 per 120 crew

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Commercial:
1 per 120 crew and passengers
Military:
1 per 120 crew

I assume this is a misprint, military passengers, such as on a troop transport, also require medics?

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

This is my second reply, I made the mistake of checking a different IE tab after submitting my post while waiting for the forum page to process the post and not verifying that my submission had actually posted before closing the tab.

Medic ... 1 per 120 crew and passengers

The crew requirement are a bit vague and more like gentle guidelines, but I think the assumption is that you round up so you need at least 1 medic (again, as a guideline).

Thank you for letting me know that on HG Beta p. 20 the Medic requirement guideline is 1 per 120 crew + passengers that may or may not round decimal fractions up to the nearest whole number.

I agree that the guidelines and rounding rules for the crew and other rules is vague. I've had conversations on other forums about crew calculations and rounding. After a number of years they have finally convinced me that rounding-up meets and in most cases exceeds the minimum required number otherwise the ship would be under crewed.

Does the HG Beta Medic requirement covering small craft, spacecraft >=100 and <3,000 tons, and capital ships >=3,000 tons?

Reviewing MgT HG 2008 the Capital Ship design section Crew pp. 66-67 appears to be based on CT LBB 5 HG 1980 Crew Requirements pp. 32-33. The only reference for medical personnel is both source books is the Medical Officer in the Command Section.

CT LBB 5 1979 Crew requirement listed the requirement for a Medical Officer in the Command Section and the requirement for a Medical Section. The Medical Section was omitted in CT LBB 5 1980 and per Consolidated CT Errata v1.1 02/01/14 complied by the late Donald McKinney and is available at http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/trav.html, p. 15:

Page 33, Crew, Medical Section (omission): The paragraph about the Medical Section was dropped:
Medical Section: The ship should have one medical person for every 240 crew persons (including ship’s troops) aboard. The medical section should have 30% officers, and 30% petty officers. Personnel are drawn from the medical branch.

I am not sure why and have asked a couple of times on other forums why CT Ship's Troops are included in the Medical Section crew rules in CT LBB 5 1979 and CT LBB 5 1980 when there are guideline for Ship's Troops which in turns references that they are organized according to CT LBB 4 Mercenary. CT LBB 4 Mercenary pp. 29-30 has guidelines for Medics. CT Stryker Book 2 Section III Campaign Rules Rule 68: pp. 34-35 is another source that indicate that Ship's Troops have their own medics.

The MgT HG 2008 Capital Ship Design Crew section appears to have been imported from CT LBB 5 HG 1980 which was missing the Medical Section and left out referencing Ship's Troops to Mercenary.

Will HG Beta include a Medical Section as part of the Capital Ship Design requirement?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The MgT HG 2008 Capital Ship Design Crew section appears to have been imported from CT LBB 5 HG 1980 which was missing the Medical Section and left out referencing Ship's Troops to Mercenary.

Medics aren't missing, they are included in Service Crew, or so is my interpretation.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Does the HG Beta Medic requirement covering small craft, spacecraft >=100 and <3,000 tons, and capital ships >=3,000 tons?

Small craft require nothing but a pilot, all ships share crew requirements, including Medics. "Small ships" can hand wave a bit.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hi again Another Dilbert,

I'm combining the small craft reply here too.

The MgT HG 2008 Capital Ship Design Crew section appears to have been imported from CT LBB 5 HG 1980 which was missing the Medical Section and left out referencing Ship's Troops to Mercenary.

Medics aren't missing, they are included in Service Crew, or so is my interpretation.

We have different interpretations of what personnel are considered Service Personnel. Of course my interpretation is based on the CT rule set, MgT CRB 1st ed./MRB Spacecraft Design, MgT Book 2 HG 2008 Capital Ship Design Command Section, and my real world experience in the USN and what is considered service crew.

Of course, based on my knowledge of the USN ship chain of command, I'm not sure why a Medical officer is in the Command section. In the USN at least a medical officer is not qualified to legally take command of a ship. Of course one can argue if the medical officer is senior most survivor the crew might follow orders that kept them alive.

I've looked in my MgT Mercenary PDF and not found how medic requirements are determined any suggestions on where I should be looking.

Does the HG Beta Medic requirement covering small craft, spacecraft >=100 and <3,000 tons, and capital ships >=3,000 tons?

Small craft require nothing but a pilot, all ships share crew requirements, including Medics. "Small ships" can hand wave a bit.

MgT book 2 HG 2008 p. 60 Small Craft Crews
The minimum number of crew for small craft depends on its size.

10-50 tons the minimum crew is 1
60-100 tons the minimum crew is 2

A craft may carry extra crewmen, often as gunners, sensor operators, cargo masters, or navigators.

Has HG Beta changed the requirements?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Has HG Beta changed the requirements?

Everything is changed. There is only a single design system for all ships and small craft.

Small craft only requires a single Pilot. Gunners may be required. Other crew can be added, if desired.

 

[AndrewW]

Will HG Beta include a Medical Section as part of the Capital Ship Design requirement?

There isn't a separate capital ship design.

Note there is a medical bay option now, which does specify a medic or autodoc is required.

 

[Condottiere]

You can change the ratio of medics to whatever.

For civilians it shouldn't matter, since there won't be enough medical emergencies to overwhelm him.

For the military in a combat zone, it would affect their morale, and the capability of the military to regenerate troop numbers from recovered troops.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert and AndewW,

My understanding in response to one of my first posts from about a month ago that the rules in MgT CBR 1st ed./MBR 2008 Spacecraft Design 2008 and MgT Book 2 HG 2008 Spacecraft Options, Small Craft Design, and Capital Ship Design were still valid rules.

Apparently I am wrong and I'll stop posting since it is now clear the new revised rules are not compatible with the material I can use. Another attempt at learning a Traveller rule set has be thwarted by not keeping up to date with the rules.

I'll be checking back now and then and who knows maybe when HG 2nd edition is published I'll be back, until then thank you and everyone else that has put up with my questions on obsolete rules.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Hello AnotherDilbert and AndewW,

My understanding in response to one of my first posts from about a month ago that the rules in MgT CBR 1st ed./MBR 2008 Spacecraft Design 2008 and MgT Book 2 HG 2008 Spacecraft Options, Small Craft Design, and Capital Ship Design were still valid rules.

Apparently I am wrong and I'll stop posting since it is now clear the new revised rules are not compatible with the material I can use. Another attempt at learning a Traveller rule set has be thwarted by not keeping up to date with the rules.

I'll be checking back now and then and who knows maybe when HG 2nd edition is published I'll be back, until then thank you and everyone else that has put up with my questions on obsolete rules.

The 1st edition works fine, and will continue to work fine. You can of course continue to use it.

Service Crew includes "... other operations.", which I interpret as anything else not specified, such as medical crew. The rules are simply not that detailed. If you feel like adding house rules for a detailed medical section that is entirely up to you.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert,

Nope, the 1st edition rules don't work when the replies I receive to questions reference a set of rules I can not access and do not agree with the 1st ed. rules that I can access.

Nor will I use house rules in a design that I might share with the Traveller community since in my opinion is that the house rules or interpretations of rules leads to my not being able to recreate a design using the rules. Unfortunately, not matter how hard I try to follow the process I regularly interpret one or more step differently from the majority. The interpretation of the MgT Book 2 HG 2008 Capital Ship Design Crew requirements is a perfect example. One interpretation is medics are lumped in with Service Crew and the other is that the medics are not part of the Service Crew. Of course the interpretation of medics not being part of the Service Crew is based on how MgT and CT rules appear to be the same on many points.

Heck, I can not even manage to recreate the Scout, Type-S on CRB 1st ed./MBR Common Spacecraft p. 115. Both my component tonnages and prices agree with those in the datasheet. My total tonnage agrees with the datasheet's listed Total Tonnage and Cost. Unfortunately, my total cost is Cr27,490,500 while the datasheet has Cr27,540,500.

Damn, I just checked in Scout/Courier on p. 40 of my CRB 2nd ed. PDF the purchase cost is MCr36.769 which shows that prices as well as crew requirements are different.

I apparently have a totally different concept about the 1st ed. design rules still being valid.

I'll stop wasting every ones time by asking questions on a design system that is obviously no longer workable with the new rules.

Again thank you for your help and my apologies for wasting your time with questions that won't matter with the release of Mgt High Guard 2nd ed.

Hello AnotherDilbert and AndewW,

My understanding in response to one of my first posts from about a month ago that the rules in MgT CBR 1st ed./MBR 2008 Spacecraft Design 2008 and MgT Book 2 HG 2008 Spacecraft Options, Small Craft Design, and Capital Ship Design were still valid rules.

Apparently I am wrong and I'll stop posting since it is now clear the new revised rules are not compatible with the material I can use. Another attempt at learning a Traveller rule set has be thwarted by not keeping up to date with the rules.

I'll be checking back now and then and who knows maybe when HG 2nd edition is published I'll be back, until then thank you and everyone else that has put up with my questions on obsolete rules.

The 1st edition works fine, and will continue to work fine. You can of course continue to use it.

Service Crew includes "... other operations.", which I interpret as anything else not specified, such as medical crew. The rules are simply not that detailed. If you feel like adding house rules for a detailed medical section that is entirely up to you.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert, AndreW, Condottiere, and all forum members,

I would like to apologized for my reaction in my last post. Unfortunately, my efforts not only with the design rules in MgT but CT and T4 has been frustrating based on changes to the rules over time.

About three years ago in CT the late Donald McKinney asked for help verifying the CT designs published in the various source books and articles. I tried to help by checking out the 100-ton Express Boat in CT Supplement 7 Traders & Gunboats 1980. On Supplement 7 p. 4 Item 6. High Guard Data notes that the ships were produced using either CT LBB 2 Starships or CT LBB 5. My first attempt at the Express Boat was using CT LBB 5 1980 which failed because of the power plant being at least the same size as the jump drive. Next I tried CT LBB 2 1977/1981 with another failure, then someone mentioned that CT LBB 2 1977 was the probable source. In CT LBB 2 1997 the power plant provided internal power and powered the maneuver. The power plant had to be at least the same rating as the jump drive. My interpretation of the 1977 rules were that a starship needed a jump drive and a power plant, which does not have to match the Jump Drive's rating. I succeeded in creating a 100-ton J-4 Express Boat by loosing one stateroom. The interpretation of the original designer was that if you can eliminate the power plant if a maneuver drive was not installed. I also failed in my attempts with the Express Boat Tender and gave up trying to verify anything else.

My next target was T4 starting with Book 1 QSDS which I thought had the components built using T4 FF&S. To my surprise I learned that T4 Book 1 QSDS and Book 2 Starships SSDS components were designed using TNE FF&S. Sadly, my attempts there have stalled since I have not been able to have anyone review my work.

Unfortunately, MgT is turning out to be following the same theme of disappointment which came out in my last couple of posts. If I had not missed the window of opportunity for acquiring the CRB/HG Beta rules I would not feel so frustrated with not being able to verify published design using the rules I do have.

Again, I offer my apology and thank you all for the past, present, and future help I hope to receive.

 

[AndrewW]

Unfortunately, MgT is turning out to be following the same theme of disappointment which came out in my last couple of posts. If I had not missed the window of opportunity for acquiring the CRB/HG Beta rules I would not feel so frustrated with not being able to verify published design using the rules I do have.

The existing published ships should match the existing rules. That said, sometimes errors do creep into some of them, in which case it is usually an error in that particular ship not the design rules.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AndrewW,

Unfortunately, MgT is turning out to be following the same theme of disappointment which came out in my last couple of posts. If I had not missed the window of opportunity for acquiring the CRB/HG Beta rules I would not feel so frustrated with not being able to verify published design using the rules I do have.

The existing published ships should match the existing rules. That said, sometimes errors do creep into some of them, in which case it is usually an error in that particular ship not the design rules.

I have only attempted to recreate one of the original designs and discovered that there was an error in my hard cover CRB 2008 and in the latest CBR PDF copy I have. I can say that the difference is only Cr50,000 between my calculations and the price in my CBR PDF 2016. Unfortunately, when compared to the hardcover my price is Cr450,000. Looking at the Scout in CRB 2nd ed. the price is higher indicating any design I make now will have to be redone whenever the new design rules come out.

I have no idea what the Scout, Type S crew requirements are in either my hardcover or PDF CRB books. Trying to get a handle on the medics has resulted in finding out that the new HG design rules have merged the CRB 2008 Spacecraft, HG 2008 Spacecraft Options, Small Craft, and Capital Ship Design rules together rewriting the requirements. In CRB 1st edition to fill a ship's minimum crew requirement you can substitute an Expert Astronavigation program for the navigator.

I am guessing that instead of trying to ask question about CRB 1st ed./MRB and HG 2008 I used go back to the Traveller forum and clearly state that I need assistance for the first edition. The exception would be finding an error that is in CRB 2nd ed. like the Ship's Computer program for Anti-Hijacking.

Who should I send the possible CRB 1st ed. Scout Type S cost error to for review.

Again thank you for the assistance.

 

[AndrewW]

I have no idea what the Scout, Type S crew requirements are in either my hardcover or PDF CRB books. Trying to get a handle on the medics has resulted in finding out that the new HG design rules have merged the CRB 2008 Spacecraft, HG 2008 Spacecraft Options, Small Craft, and Capital Ship Design rules together rewriting the requirements. In CRB 1st edition to fill a ship's minimum crew requirement you can substitute an Expert Astronavigation program for the navigator.

According the IISS 1. According to the Traveller Core Rulebook (1st Mongoose edition): Pilot, Navigator, Engineer. Doesn't say they have to be different people or even people at all.

Who should I send the possible CRB 1st ed. Scout Type S cost error to for review.

At this point don't see any further updates to the 1st edition Core Rulebook coming (over in the Traveller section since it doesn't apply to the playtest). But feel free to post where the issue is (other then the Air/Raft cost which was already covered).