Space News #5

This is what happens when a company is more concerned about personal characteristics OTHER than a person's fitness to do a job.
When quality is mandatory you NEED people in each position who can EARN IT. Check boxes are for the paper on the clipboard of the QUALIFIED quality control inspector.
 
I'm from the Pacific North West, Boeing's home turf, and it's sad to see the drop the company has suffered.
Something else that should be mentioned beyond just the executive board... Boeing has traditionally has a contentious relationship with its union workers. There is a saying around here, 'You just got hired by the Lazy B ranch? Awesome. Start saving a quarter of your pay right now because sometime in the next 5 years your union will strike and you'll need the cash.'
So Boeing has been trying to movie its operations to 'right to work' anti-union states like South Carolina. The problem is the workers there are less well trained and poorly motivated... they simply turn out a poorer product than the union shops up here. And that's not hyperbole... there's plenty of NTSB and FAA evidence to support this belief.
That doesn't explain everything, of course. There are several endemic failures in Boeing's products going back 20 or more years and it's gonna be at least 20 more before they earn back the public's trust. But the worker relations issue is something that's never talked about in the news.
 
It’s hard if not impossible to change institutionalised behaviour. Disruption is very uncomfortable

Whilst hugely embarrassing for Boeing, they should stick to what they do well and double down on their core market not vanity projects. Fix their aero engineering issues first
 
Disclaimer: I've been a Boeing stockholder since the day the markets opened after 9/11 (okay, slightly opportunistic, and I bought Lockheed Martin the same day, because, well, didn't take a rocket scientist... oh wait, too soon? - the rocket science part, not 9/11, but either way, I apologize) and up until the Before Times came to an abrupt end and we all got to work from home, I could see the Boeing Everett plant out my cubicle window.

Boeing was an engineering company, then it merged with McDonnel Douglas, and acquired a more 'business' emphasis, and decided to focus more on 'Shareholder value' than engineering (see above, I didn't actually do so poorly, money-wise, but... I also voted against the entire slate of directors every year after they moved the headquarters out of Seattle, even if I understood why they did it).

Second disclaimer: Shortly thereafter, the CEO of Boeing became Harry Stonecipher (no, not a creepy last name at all). I was rather familiar with him when he ran Sundstrand Corporation, back when I lived in Rockford Illinois, and... well I kind of knew it wasn't going to go well, especially for Seattle).

So, Boeing hasn't been a Seattle or engineering company for more than two decades and it shows.

Now, I don't want to get into a labour vs. management argument, because at various times, I've seen and worked it from both angles and the best I can say is "we're all idiots." But this is telling. Up at Everett, they engaged in a multi-year project to do some of the riveting by robot instead of by, um, riveters. So they put the machine on the assembly floor (I think it's still the biggest building in the world by volume; don't know if they still run tours) and after a period of I think it was two or three years, the union employees they assigned to 'test' the equipment just... couldn't.. get... it... to... make... things... line... up... with anywhere near the accuracy as union riveters. And so they said 'Sorry, boss, we really tried.' And management said 'Okay, then, thanks for trying.' And the robot went away.

*faceplant*
*head shake*
*too tired for tears*

Should have sold those shares. Can't buy SpaceX shares, though, they're private.

​

 
Optionally, you can buy Russian rockets as lifters.

And if the Pandas hadn't screwed the pooch prematurely, I bet the Americans would be using a Chinese solution.

After considerable technological transfers.
 
damn... thought this as a Traveller music thread.. a true one.

ahhh.. the good old days. Forever rock on Ronnie!!!

 
Geir said:
Disclaimer: I've been a Boeing stockholder since the day the markets opened after 9/11 (okay, slightly opportunistic, and I bought Lockheed Martin the same day, because, well, didn't take a rocket scientist... oh wait, too soon? - the rocket science part, not 9/11, but either way, I apologize) and up until the Before Times came to an abrupt end and we all got to work from home, I could see the Boeing Everett plant out my cubicle window.

Boeing was an engineering company, then it merged with McDonnel Douglas, and acquired a more 'business' emphasis, and decided to focus more on 'Shareholder value' than engineering (see above, I didn't actually do so poorly, money-wise, but... I also voted against the entire slate of directors every year after they moved the headquarters out of Seattle, even if I understood why they did it).

Second disclaimer: Shortly thereafter, the CEO of Boeing became Harry Stonecipher (no, not a creepy last name at all). I was rather familiar with him when he ran Sundstrand Corporation, back when I lived in Rockford Illinois, and... well I kind of knew it wasn't going to go well, especially for Seattle).

So, Boeing hasn't been a Seattle or engineering company for more than two decades and it shows.

Now, I don't want to get into a labour vs. management argument, because at various times, I've seen and worked it from both angles and the best I can say is "we're all idiots." But this is telling. Up at Everett, they engaged in a multi-year project to do some of the riveting by robot instead of by, um, riveters. So they put the machine on the assembly floor (I think it's still the biggest building in the world by volume; don't know if they still run tours) and after a period of I think it was two or three years, the union employees they assigned to 'test' the equipment just... couldn't.. get... it... to... make... things... line... up... with anywhere near the accuracy as union riveters. And so they said 'Sorry, boss, we really tried.' And management said 'Okay, then, thanks for trying.' And the robot went away.

*faceplant*
*head shake*
*too tired for tears*

Should have sold those shares. Can't buy SpaceX shares, though, they're private.

​

Click to expand...
Yeah, most people haven't snapped to the concept that McDonnell Douglas and it's finance guys took over Boeing and it's engineering mindset when they got bought out. Sad to see how far Boeing has slid over the decades since "shareholder value" became the buzzword and "engineering... whatszat?" echoed through the C-suite.

It will be years before Boeing is able to recover from all it's missteps - assuming it even does.
 
In other Boeing news it looks like Boeing/Lockheed Martin may be selling off United Launch Alliance.
 
Geir said:
Disclaimer: I've been a Boeing stockholder since the day the markets opened after 9/11 (okay, slightly opportunistic, and I bought Lockheed Martin the same day, because, well, didn't take a rocket scientist... oh wait, too soon? - the rocket science part, not 9/11, but either way, I apologize) and up until the Before Times came to an abrupt end and we all got to work from home, I could see the Boeing Everett plant out my cubicle window.

Boeing was an engineering company, then it merged with McDonnel Douglas, and acquired a more 'business' emphasis, and decided to focus more on 'Shareholder value' than engineering (see above, I didn't actually do so poorly, money-wise, but... I also voted against the entire slate of directors every year after they moved the headquarters out of Seattle, even if I understood why they did it).

Second disclaimer: Shortly thereafter, the CEO of Boeing became Harry Stonecipher (no, not a creepy last name at all). I was rather familiar with him when he ran Sundstrand Corporation, back when I lived in Rockford Illinois, and... well I kind of knew it wasn't going to go well, especially for Seattle).

So, Boeing hasn't been a Seattle or engineering company for more than two decades and it shows.

Now, I don't want to get into a labour vs. management argument, because at various times, I've seen and worked it from both angles and the best I can say is "we're all idiots." But this is telling. Up at Everett, they engaged in a multi-year project to do some of the riveting by robot instead of by, um, riveters. So they put the machine on the assembly floor (I think it's still the biggest building in the world by volume; don't know if they still run tours) and after a period of I think it was two or three years, the union employees they assigned to 'test' the equipment just... couldn't.. get... it... to... make... things... line... up... with anywhere near the accuracy as union riveters. And so they said 'Sorry, boss, we really tried.' And management said 'Okay, then, thanks for trying.' And the robot went away.

*faceplant*
*head shake*
*too tired for tears*

Should have sold those shares. Can't buy SpaceX shares, though, they're private.

​

Click to expand...
So, what do you think of Boom Supersonic?
 
AndrewW said:
In other Boeing news it looks like Boeing/Lockheed Martin may be selling off United Launch Alliance.
Click to expand...
By the time Sierra Space closes the deal (if they do), ULA may be gutted. It's bleeding people like crazy to SpaceX and other companies. I hear better pay combined with getting into the new technologies instead of the tried and true ones that ULA has been using. Still, the Delta series has a pretty enviable safety and launch record.

Lockheed and Boeing can't compete well on price though - too top heavy.
 
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