Soviet Wing-in-Ground attack craft/boat/airplane

phavoc

Emperor Mongoose
Something they built before they collapsed. It's a real working wing-in-ground craft armed with anti-ship missiles. The article talks about the aircraft with many inside images of it as it slowly rusts away on the Caspian. At the end is some archival footage of it flying and even firing off some of it's missiles. It's very cool if you like this sort of stuff. And some fertile ground for someone who might want to duplicate this for an adventure somewhere.

http://thebrigade.com/2015/07/09/russias-unprecedented-monster-aircraft-ship-53-photos-and-story/
 
While I have seen this before, I had never seen these photos before. Those are some great photos of the interior. 8)
 
What are your thoughts on how it might be employed?

Doesn't look to be the most manoeuvrable, easy pickings?

What would defend it?
 
The idea was to fly under the radar horizon and get close enough to the target to unleash it's missiles. For target acquisition it would need either passive identification or to be fed targeting data from another aircraft/platform, maybe even a submarine, or possibly satellite. Radar on a ship has a limitation due to the curvature of the earth, hence the closer you are to the surface the more likely you will be able to get closer to the emitter.

I'm not sure if the Hawkeye of the time would have been able to pick it up, since it's primarily for air defense. For the time period, if a pair of F-14's were flying CAP, they would be able to engage the missiles with their phoenix's, so unless you could overwhelm the fleet defenses it probably couldn't do much on it's own. But Russian doctrine calls for overwhelming attack from sea, undersea and air on carrier battle groups. It's all theoretical on who would come out better - us or them.

With enough of the WIG vehicles, it could have made even more of a headache for the surface fleets. Then a carrier battle group might have had to have more airborne sea-scanning radars aloft. Though satellites from the US side would be able to spot it most likely, especially via infrared with those monstrous hot engines.

Still, it's a pretty neat thing to watch. :)
 
hiro said:
What are your thoughts on how it might be employed?

Doesn't look to be the most manoeuvrable, easy pickings?

What would defend it?

Soviets had "total war" policy, with their strategic rocket forces under command of local headquarters, so I suppose, being the Black Sea theater, they would hit everything with missiles first and throw all their equipment out in a massed wave. The Ekranoplans were ships, basically, same as they had diesel electric submarines, they would go out under air cover, fire off all their missiles and head back to be resupplied. Much of the Black Sea coast is filled with coastal bunkers, where they would also have SAM sites and anti-shipping missiles. Even in peacetime the Soviet Navy would ram ships that came within the 7 mile limit of their territorial waters, so I would think that the ekrans would be used aggressively.
 
What, if anything, is the equivalent in Traveller or sci-fi in general?

I'm thinking there's a parallel with starships using reaction drives, not completely, there is definitely a difference but the stand off and launch theory cos you'll get trounced by smaller more agile craft (ships or aircraft) if you close to fight seems similar.
 
Very low altitude flyer? Otherwise, somewhat like the various missile corvettes like the Valor class. I think with total velocity being lower, reaction mass propulsion driven ships would fight similarly to regular trav ships, I haven't really played that scenario out though.
 
phavoc said:
Still, it's a pretty neat thing to watch. :)

Agreed, there's something very cool about wing in ground effect.

I've a big soft spot for aerodynes like those seen in the Terminator films but that's another thread...
 
I've used ekranoplans in a number of sci-fi settings and games.

They are, under the right circumstances really good vehicles.

If you have any planet with a lot of water, or with a lot of flat land you're golden. They are more efficient to build and operate than aeroplanes. They are far faster than any large surface vehicle with the exception of maglev trains.

Of course, once you get antigrav they don't look so hot, but not every setting has that and even ones which do, like Traveller, have a niche where local tech isn't that high yet.

I ran a fairly hard-science game set on Mars where ekranoplans were the primary means of travel between settlements. Everything from one-man runabouts to hemisphere cruising monsters bigger then the Lun class up there. (of course, on Mars you need landing gear...)
 
You want fairly calm water, which probably means an inland sea.

One variant would be more passenger based, militarily fast transport and rescue.

I believe those little speedboats the Iranians plan to sink a carrier with are based on the same principle, but the concept is likely inherently fragile, which means if you can intercept them beyond the range of their weapon systems, very likely dead. A cruise missile could go looking for them, or even a predator drone with a hellfire.
 
W-I-G effect craft can take some heavy seas, but I don't believe they would be effective in heavy storms. Probably a good rule of thumb is if a carrier can't launch, you can't put a W-I-G craft in the water either. All the sea spray has to be hell on the engines though.

The Iranians liked to use standard speedboats. They don't even use hydrofoils, just regular speed boats. But they are pretty small and hard to detect on sea radar until they get close. Which is why you saw the ships deployed to the Gulf sprout a lot more secondary weapon stations with .50cals and 20mm. Much like everyone learned at the beginning of WW2 when planes started sinking ships and they sprouted AA like weeds.
 
hiro said:
What, if anything, is the equivalent in Traveller or sci-fi in general?

* WIG is a relative of high performance hovercraft. If you look at the some of the speeds of hovertanks in 2300, it seems to me that they might actually use principles involved in WIG aircraft. It's actually something that I'm betting the 2300 designers weren't aware of when they wrote the game. GDW did become aware of it by Traveller: The New Era, which has rules for implementing WIG vehicles in Traveller.

* Certain interpretations of contra/anti-gravity behave like WIG vehicles. They only allow a vessel to hover a few meters above the ground in cruise mode and require things like rocket assist to reach orbit.
 
Epicenter said:
hiro said:
What, if anything, is the equivalent in Traveller or sci-fi in general?

* WIG is a relative of high performance hovercraft. If you look at the some of the speeds of hovertanks in 2300, it seems to me that they might actually use principles involved in WIG aircraft. It's actually something that I'm betting the 2300 designers weren't aware of when they wrote the game. GDW did become aware of it by Traveller: The New Era, which has rules for implementing WIG vehicles in Traveller.

* Certain interpretations of contra/anti-gravity behave like WIG vehicles. They only allow a vessel to hover a few meters above the ground in cruise mode and require things like rocket assist to reach orbit.

Epicenter, sorry, my question wasn't clear. I meant what was the equivalent in terms of tactical application. My obscure thoughts being that it's relatively poor agility might compare it to vector based movement of starships. I can't see how it could be employed in a hostile environment, it just looks way too vulnerable. A good stand off weapons launch platform, relatively quick to get to launch range but easy prey for aircraft or a warship.
 
hiro said:
Epicenter said:
hiro said:
What, if anything, is the equivalent in Traveller or sci-fi in general?

* WIG is a relative of high performance hovercraft. If you look at the some of the speeds of hovertanks in 2300, it seems to me that they might actually use principles involved in WIG aircraft. It's actually something that I'm betting the 2300 designers weren't aware of when they wrote the game. GDW did become aware of it by Traveller: The New Era, which has rules for implementing WIG vehicles in Traveller.

* Certain interpretations of contra/anti-gravity behave like WIG vehicles. They only allow a vessel to hover a few meters above the ground in cruise mode and require things like rocket assist to reach orbit.

Epicenter, sorry, my question wasn't clear. I meant what was the equivalent in terms of tactical application. My obscure thoughts being that it's relatively poor agility might compare it to vector based movement of starships. I can't see how it could be employed in a hostile environment, it just looks way too vulnerable. A good stand off weapons launch platform, relatively quick to get to launch range but easy prey for aircraft or a warship.

easy prey for aircraft I agree with. But most warships have a relatively cloe in range of engagement. Even with an Aegis cruiser in the formation the line of sight for radar would be short. Shorter than the range of an warships air defense weapons.

Being so close to the the water where ground scatter would make it a real pain to lock onto. the WIG would have an advantage its tt far out for heat seekers, and too fast for GPS guided weapons. So the only means of engagement would be radar guided weapons.

At several hundred miles an hour the WIG could get within range launch its missiles and be out of range of return fire fairly quickly. at lest against surface launched weapons caried by a task force.

Now against aircraft its another story, even a slow flying patrol aircraft it wouldn't be able to outrun pursuit. Patrol aircraft or even drones would be able to get in close to use more accurate weapons, and cannon.

In the end it was an interesting idea, and might have been useful if technology hand outpaced development. it's marginal advantage would have made fielding it more expensive than just building existing naval attack aircraft, and improved surface to surface anti-ship missiles.
 
hiro said:
Epicenter, sorry, my question wasn't clear.

Oh, right.

Just like everything else, I think the moment you get anti-gravity, everything below it becomes hopelessly obsolete. It's just the way cheap anti-gravity works.

Even before then, I think they were more of a novelty. If they really offered anything that great, everyone would be using them. They're not really aircraft (despite their appearance) but very fast moving ships. The only problem is that they have similar max load limits to aircraft as opposed to the greater load capacity of surface vessels.

I think under Soviet operational doctrines, more than missile attacks, they could have been a very interesting element for rapid insertion of troops according to Soviet "deep battle" doctrine. If you look at the Lun's arrangement of missiles obviously aerodynamics wasn't such a big deal on a such a slow-moving "aircraft." I'm sure with further development, the Soviets could have even put CIWS systems on them. Being very low to the ground (essentially you'd need a surface radar or look-down radar to see them), they could have been used for strategic initiative, not as a missile attack vehicle but as a cargo transport. A bunch of these things coming in over the North Sea, overlooked by air defense who are looking for Backfires could unload a lot of troops and equipment to assault ports in Germany or even the Low Countries in event of a war.

The Lun had a certain amount of altitude capacity - not great enough to truly "fly" but clear them of a lot of ground clutter; flying over treetop level and "jumping" to clear power lines while their course could let them evade tall buildings and similar things (or with research, they might have just developed "wire cutter" attachments to cut power lines). It's possible they could have turned them into how gliders were used for WW2's D-Day. With sufficiently detailed maps of Germany, the things could have swooped in through the Fulda Gap along with the initial tank thrust - playing NOE flight games like helicopters, depending on Frontal Aviation's Flankers and Fulcrums to keep losses from NATO fighters manageable (and their CIWS for the missiles that they couldn't cover). They'd be too fast and too low for MANPADS of the time to engage (likely they'd be out of sight before the missile locked on as it swooped over the trees or hills into sight of some surprised Stinger detachment), and NATO forces are infamously poorly equipped with rapid-response gun-radar based AA guns (the weapon that'd be really the bane of low-flying aircraft as the Israelis learned) with sufficient granularity to respond to a massed Lun-lift. Of course a certain percentage would be shot down, but they'd still be safer than cargo aircraft for paratroops. Once at their destination, they might make a one-time rough landing (the things wouldn't be flying back home) to deploy hundreds of troops and light vehicles into NATO rear areas to wreak havoc until destroyed or relieved by advancing forces which again would fit pretty neatly into Soviet Deep Battle and OMG doctrines.

I think WIG designs like this actually have more life as civilian vehicles. They have better fuel economy than aircraft up to a certain speed - for transoceanic cargo transport they'd be cheaper than cargo jets even though they're lifting about the same amount.
 
Anyone seen or have a link to footage of them flying over ground?

That must be awesome! A lot of "aircraft" that low!
 
hiro said:
Anyone seen or have a link to footage of them flying over ground?

That must be awesome! A lot of "aircraft" that low!

The testing was halted before they got that far into the program. And from what i have read, seen,it would have been very tricky. The test planes only flew a hundred feet, or so off the ground before they lost ground effect, and without ground effect they couldn't fly.
 
It's a hybrid.

So in Travellerish terms, you could have a spaceship hull and one of those one planetary diameter grav drives.
 
hiro said:
What are your thoughts on how it might be employed?

Doesn't look to be the most manoeuvrable, easy pickings?

What would defend it?

Speed, mostly. In theory an ekranoplan could get up to 300-400 kph. The Caspian Sea Monster was a prototype of a large one; there are smaller ones actually in production and some work was done on smaller fast attack missile boats based on the same surface effect principle.
 
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