Sorcery Range
- Thread starter PhilHibbs
- Start date
Surely you are not arguing that spells affect themselves? If combined, Wrack and Neutralise magic are the same spell. By this argument, neautralise magic is useless. If its not more powerful than the target spells it will not neitralise them, and if it IS, then it neutralises itself first!
Loz
Mongoose
From a common sense POV, any spells an individual sorcerer casts will not affect themselves: thus a Neutralise spell will not neutralise either itself or any other spell its combined with when cast by the originating sorcerer. To affect a target the Neutralise must be powerful enough to overcome any Countermagic, so you need to think about the manipulations and magnitudes involved, but you shouldn't need to worry about your own Neutralise spell nerfing anything else you cast or combine it with.
As always, look at the common sense perspective first before applying the RAW; should help in 99% of cases and exceptions!
Deleriad
Mongoose
Loz said:
Well Neutralise Magic is an autonomous spell. So say the following happens:
I cast Neutralise Magic 73% at a target allowing me to dispel up to 8 Mag of spells. The target has Protect 2 in place. The Protect 2 is dispelled leaving NM with enough juice left to dispel 6 Mag. For the duration of the spell presumably the neutralize magic will take down the next 6 Mag of spells that affect the target. So, if the target tries to cast Protect 2 again then the neutralise will dispel it. It follows pretty logically from the description of autonomous spells and the description of NM.
For example, if someone under the influence of Treat Wounds is not currently injured, the spell doesn't go away, it sits around and automatically heals injuries as and when they happen.
Now neutralise magic could work differently 'just because' but there's no indication in the rules that this should be the case and therefore if NM is an exception it should be marked as such.
If, if you cast NM on someone who has Protect 2 and Wrack (Mag 1) then the NM will take them both out. NM doesn't care who cast the spell or whether it's helping or hindering the target.
Similarly NM is autonomous therefore continues affecting its target automatically until its Duration runs out or it runs out of juice. Ipso facto, as they say in Iceland, if NM finds a spell it can dispel at any time during its duration, it will dispel it.
Personally, I don't think a common sense POV is not really a good idea for magic due to the fact that a) magic isn't really amenable to common sense and b) one person's common sense is rarely the same as another's. This is especially true with Living Glorantha where players can reasonably ask GMs to run scenarios RAW rather than based on their own interpretation unless agreed before hand.
Naturally, NM could be officially clarified to say that it doesn't affect spells cast on the target afterwards, or that it can't affect spells it is combined with or both. Neither currently follows from the RAW.
Lord High Munchkin
Mongoose
As Kintire says, once combined, they are the same spell. It's a way of making spells with effects that are not covered by existing spells.
It works the same way as 'Basic Magic' does in 'Chivalry & Sorcery' — if you have ever played it.
It works the same way as 'Basic Magic' does in 'Chivalry & Sorcery' — if you have ever played it.
Deleriad
Mongoose
kintire said:
Sorry, I was answering at something of a tangent then forgot the original point. Happy to agree that Neutralise Magic when Combined with other spells (such as Wrack) counts as one big, happy spell and doesn't Neutralise itself or any of the constituent spells it is combined with. It will, if it has juice left, Neutralise any future spells that are cast on the same target.
OK, Neutralise Magic vs. Spell Resistance - which effect takes precedence?
Spell Resistance blocks incoming spells with Magnitude of Grimoire/10. Neutralise Magic removes spells of less than Magnitude of Grimoire/10
Let us assume these spells were both put up by sorcerors in a hurry and are cast at Magnitude 1 with a Grimoire of 80%. Both spells can potentially cancel each other out.
So Sorceror A casts Neutralise at Spell Resistant Sorceror B. Which effect takes place first? Does the Spell Resistance bounce the Neutralise or does the Neutralise take down the Spell Resistance per the Neutralise spell description?
Would it be down to opposed spell rolls (if people could remember what Sorceror B had rolled when he put up Spell Resistance several turns ago) or is there some kind of Defence primacy default rule (as Exalted has)?
SJE
Spell Resistance blocks incoming spells with Magnitude of Grimoire/10. Neutralise Magic removes spells of less than Magnitude of Grimoire/10
Let us assume these spells were both put up by sorcerors in a hurry and are cast at Magnitude 1 with a Grimoire of 80%. Both spells can potentially cancel each other out.
So Sorceror A casts Neutralise at Spell Resistant Sorceror B. Which effect takes place first? Does the Spell Resistance bounce the Neutralise or does the Neutralise take down the Spell Resistance per the Neutralise spell description?
Would it be down to opposed spell rolls (if people could remember what Sorceror B had rolled when he put up Spell Resistance several turns ago) or is there some kind of Defence primacy default rule (as Exalted has)?
SJE
I've always played that the Attacking spell must get past the defending spell in order to attempt the efect. So, First roll to see if the Spell esistance blocks the Neutralise Magic, then roll to see if the Neutralise Magic dispels the Spell Resistance.
Although, an Opposed Roll would make sense as the two spells battle for supremacy.
Although, an Opposed Roll would make sense as the two spells battle for supremacy.
Deleriad said:
Well I'm not sure where the "roll to see if Spell resistance blocks Neutralise magic" comes from - its merely a matter of comparing the Magnitude of the spell (in this case 1) vs. the resistance capacity of the spell resistance (8). So what Soltakass is saying is "Spell Resistance has primacy". yes, if you bump up the Magnitude of your Neutralise you might be able to overcome the capacity of the Spell Resist and then Neutralise will kick in, but there are no opposed rolls in that method.
Who wrote the Sorcery rules- was it Pete Nash or Loz? Did either of you have a preference?
Thx.
SJE
I think that until the spell has hit the target, it doesn't "un-bundle" into its component sections. It's still a single spell that can't actually do anything until it hits. Therefore you can't really think of it as a Neutralise Magic until it has managed to get past the Spell Resistance in the same way that any spell has to. So, Spell Resistance gets first shot at resisting the whole package. Then, if it hits, the bundle of magic splits up into its component effects.SJE said:
Mongoose Pete
Mongoose
You do know we dislike giving absolute answers... :wink:SJE said:
Neutralise always takes precedence. If the Neutralise Magic can affect the Magnitude of the Spell Resistance it neutralises it. No roll is required.
As always however, if you like tweaking/interpreting the rules slightly differently then feel free to play it anyway you want.
Ok cool, Neutralise beats Spell Resistance. Thanks for that clarification Pete.
Given that, if you combo Neutralise with Wrack, does the fact both effects go off in the same spell mean that the Spell Resistance is breached by the Neutralise at the same time as the Wrack damages you?
Also my bad on Damage Enhancement- should probably add that to the Defensive Suite of Spells in CA1 rather than the offensive combo.
Mucho gracias,
Steve
Given that, if you combo Neutralise with Wrack, does the fact both effects go off in the same spell mean that the Spell Resistance is breached by the Neutralise at the same time as the Wrack damages you?
Also my bad on Damage Enhancement- should probably add that to the Defensive Suite of Spells in CA1 rather than the offensive combo.
Mucho gracias,
Steve
Spell resistance would never be cast with magnitude, though. It gets its potency purely from Grimoire skill - if your skill is 51-60%, then I'd say it would block any incoming Magnitude 6 or lower spells, including Neutralise Magic. NM would have to have higher Magnitude than the skill/10 of the SR-casting sorceror.Mongoose Pete said:
