Sorcery Magnitude question

[Deleriad]

The maximum Magnitude to which the spell can be increased to is noted in the Manipulating Sorcery Spells table.

I have always taken that to mean that the sorcerer can choose his magnitude. Saying you MUST cast at the maximum possible would also imply that if you had Magnitude (Targets) 35% you MUST cast at 4 targets at once if you apply that skill. There would be no way to target only 2 or 3 targets.

(I cast my 4d6 Firebolt at the three Trolls and, err, Bob. Sorry Bob - I have to pick another target - I really am pulling for you to live though.)

This answer convinces me that you can indeed choose whatever magnitude you desire, up to your maximum.

That said, MRQ never actually says that you have to choose different targets with targets...

 

[RosenMcStern]

That said, MRQ never actually says that you have to choose different targets with targets...

RQ3 did not, either, but nobody ever suggested that you could cast Venom 1 eighteen times at the same target instead of one big Venom 18.

 

[Rurik]

That said, MRQ never actually says that you have to choose different targets with targets...

In that case I am casting all four firebolts at Bob - never liked him anyway.

 

[gran_orco]

The maximum Magnitude to which the spell can be increased to is noted in the Manipulating Sorcery Spells table.

I have always taken that to mean that the sorcerer can choose his magnitude. Saying you MUST cast at the maximum possible would also imply that if you had Magnitude (Targets) 35% you MUST cast at 4 targets at once if you apply that skill. There would be no way to target only 2 or 3 targets.

(I cast my 4d6 Firebolt at the three Trolls and, err, Bob. Sorry Bob - I have to pick another target - I really am pulling for you to live though.)

We are talking about magnitude, not targets. You could choose another target. However, magnitude should be treated different. With rune magic you can cast spells at a maximum magnitude or 1, but not an intermediate value. The legendary ability woudn't have logic, if so.

 

[Deleriad]

The legendary ability woudn't have logic, if so.

Logic and the RQ Spellbook are distant cousins...

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Well, even though you HAD TO cast the spell at its maximum magnitude, this would not mean that it could not cause the same effect of a lesser magnitude one if the caster wished to. A Heal 4 spell can still heal a 2-point wound, IMO, and note that you cannot cast Heal 2 if you know Heal 4 - this is specifically stated in the Rune Magic chapter. The point is that Heal 4 costs more than Heal 2, while Treat Wounds 4 costs the same as Treat Wounds 2.

I think there is a confusion here between Rune Magic, Divine Magic and Sorcery

A progressive Rune Magic spell can be learned at any magnitude - It is more expensive to learn a Magnitude 4 spell than a Magnitude 1 spell, and it costs magnitude Magic Points to cast. Each spell is treated as an entirely separate spell, so it is possible to learn Bladesharp 4 without learning Bladesharp 2 (this is a change from the rules of Battle/Spirit Magic in earlier versions of RQ). Consequently you can only cast those progressive spells at the magnitude you have learned - which is wasteful if you have a 2 point wound and only a Heal 4, and awkward if you only know Heal 6 but only have 5 Magic points left...

A progressive Divine Magic spell can be cast "in parts", although it must be acquired and held as a single spell at the maximum magnitude you may wish to use - Heal body will heal one location per magnitude - if you have prayed for 6 days at a minor temple and paid the 1600 silver for "Heal Body 6" you can use it to cast 6 "Heal Body 1" spells (or 3 "Heal Body 2", or a "Heal Body 4" and 2 "Heal Body 1" or any other combination that adds up to 6), should your opponents always be consistent in where they hit you. what you can't do is visit a holy site for a day and pay 50 silver on 6 different occasions to learn 6 "Heal Body 1" spells - even if you never intend to combine them.

Sorcery spells aren't don't have a "progressive" trait, but can be cast at a higher magnitude than 1 by using Manipulation(Magnitude) It costs 1MP to use Manipulation (Magnitude) regardless of the final magnitude achieved. The "Maximum Magnitude" is based on the casters skill in Manipulation (Magnitude) and there is rarely a situation where, having chosen to apply Manipulation (magnitude) you would not chose to apply the Maximum (it doesn't cost any more MP). I would rule that the caster can chose to do if they wish however

 

[duncan_disorderly]

With rune magic you can cast spells at a maximum magnitude or 1, but not an intermediate value. The legendary ability woudn't have logic, if so.

Which legendary ability?
Someone mentioned "Master Sorceror" earlier, but I can't see that listed on the list of LA's on Mr Qwiki...

 

[Rurik]

The maximum Magnitude to which the spell can be increased to is noted in the Manipulating Sorcery Spells table.

I have always taken that to mean that the sorcerer can choose his magnitude. Saying you MUST cast at the maximum possible would also imply that if you had Magnitude (Targets) 35% you MUST cast at 4 targets at once if you apply that skill. There would be no way to target only 2 or 3 targets.

(I cast my 4d6 Firebolt at the three Trolls and, err, Bob. Sorry Bob - I have to pick another target - I really am pulling for you to live though.)

We are talking about magnitude, not targets. You could choose another target. However, magnitude should be treated different. With rune magic you can cast spells at a maximum magnitude or 1, but not an intermediate value. The legendary ability woudn't have logic, if so.

But neither Magnitude or Targets says they are an exception to how other Manipulation skills are handled - if one must be cast at maximum ability then the same rule applies to all. There are really on two possibilities:

1) A caster must cast at full ability

OR

2) A caster can choose a magnitude, targets, duration, etc. less than his full ability

I suppose there is a third possibility that the Manipulation skills are not all supposed to work the same way but someone forgot to include that fact in the actual rules.

Furthermore, the wording:

"The maximum Magnitude to which the spell can be increased..."

Implies that casting at less than maximum is a choice, otherwise why use the words I emphasised. That is always the way I have interpreted the rules, and everyone I know has understood them the same way.

With rune magic you can cast spells at a maximum magnitude or 1, but not an intermediate value.

Not really, If you have Bladesharp 4 do not get to cast it at Magnitude 4 or 1, only at 4. Progressive spells are clearly described as being different spells, Bladesharp 1 and Bladesharp 4 are two different spells. Damage boosting on the other hand is 1 spell, no matter what magnitude it is cast at.

The legendary ability woudn't have logic, if so.

I've enjoy MRQ, but rules consistancy across volumes has not been a strong point of the line so far. There have been other parts of that book that have been pointed out as not really working right with the rules.

 

[zozotroll]

Has anyone detected a reason why Runemagic is a fixed magnitude, other than to be annoying, and to make sorcery cool?

In general it seems sorcery got better, but divine got the shaft. Rune is ok with some odd limitations. Spirit comes along like rune with even more limitations.

Is sorcery supposed to be the dominate magic of the age?

 

[Deleriad]

Which legendary ability?
Someone mentioned "Master Sorceror" earlier, but I can't see that listed on the list of LA's on Mr Qwiki...

That is correct. Without the rulebook in front of me it says something like, whenever you use magnitude you get an extra 1D4 magnitude. The confusion is that it says when you critical your roll then you get the same old +1d4 but can choose what magnitude to cast it at.

Basically my rule of thumb is that if there is contradiction between the Companion and the spellbook when it comes to sorcery, the companion wins. For example, the author of the spellbook (or the editor) does not appear to realise that the "instant" trait exists in sorcery.

 

[Rurik]

Has anyone detected a reason why Runemagic is a fixed magnitude, other than to be annoying, and to make sorcery cool?

In general it seems sorcery got better, but divine got the shaft. Rune is ok with some odd limitations. Spirit comes along like rune with even more limitations.

Is sorcery supposed to be the dominate magic of the age?

God Learner Magic is supposed to be more powerful than any Third Age Magic (as is Draconic Magic I believe - they are after all turning a big chunk of Genertela into a Dragon). I have always understood the Second Age to be a time of two great magical empires who's power and hubris led to their spectacular failures and ruin throughout the world.

So sorcery should be powerful. It felt a bit odd to me at first, since in general magic as a whole is less powerful than RQ3 in MRQ, so it didn't feel at first like an 'Age of Magic'. But really, they are just different games, with MRQ being 'lower magic' compared to RQ3. Sorcery is more powerful for starting characters in MRQ, and much more MP efficient than RQ3, but also much more limited at the high end (no 20 year duration spells cast halfway around the world).

[Only slightly related tangent] I prefer MRQ Sorcery as a magic system for game play, but actually RQ3 Sorcery better fits the world in some ways. If towers that reach miles into the sky are held up by sorcery for example, how is that maintained? By casting the appropriate spell every 3 hours? Such effects I could envision with RQ3 sorcery, but not with MRQ sorcery. But in the end it is not that important for gameplay - who wants to play a maintenance sorcerer whose job it is to cast spells to support otherwise impossible architecture? [/Only slightly related tangent]

 

[Deleriad]

One thing is that sorcery in MRQ is meant to be "generic" which is to say that it is not supposed to be an emulation of God Learner Sorcery.

I prefer MRQ Sorcery as a magic system for game play, but actually RQ3 Sorcery better fits the world in some ways. If towers that reach miles into the sky are held up by sorcery for example, how is that maintained?

I must admit that I tend to consign that sort of effect to Plot Device Magic rather than PC Magic. That said, I also tend to think of this as some sort of enchantment requiring all sorts of pre-conditions and a cast a thousands to build. It would be a little too cheap if there was a sorcery spell called "Big Impressive Tower" which could be combined with Fly (providing the tower was smaller than the sorcerer in which case it would look good on a Spinal Tap set...).

 

[Rurik]

One thing is that sorcery in MRQ is meant to be "generic" which is to say that it is not supposed to be an emulation of God Learner Sorcery.

But it is basically God Learner Sorcery. Magic of Glorantha has a handful of new spells, and tweaks a couple in the Companion (mostly just quicker casting times) specifically because God Learners are so damn good at it, and calls it a day. Jrustela adds some new spells as well, but basically, Sorcery as presented in the Companion is what God Learners use in all Gloranthan supplements.

I prefer MRQ Sorcery as a magic system for game play, but actually RQ3 Sorcery better fits the world in some ways. If towers that reach miles into the sky are held up by sorcery for example, how is that maintained?

I must admit that I tend to consign that sort of effect to Plot Device Magic rather than PC Magic. That said, I also tend to think of this as some sort of enchantment requiring all sorts of pre-conditions and a cast a thousands to build. It would be a little too cheap if there was a sorcery spell called "Big Impressive Tower" which could be combined with Fly (providing the tower was smaller than the sorcerer in which case it would look good on a Spinal Tap set...).[/quote]

I agree, and I don't plan on retrofitting RQ3 sorcery to MRQ or anything like that, but I do find that many effects attributted to the God Learners could be envisioned in RQ3 because of the way sorcery scaled up.

 

[soltakss]

The Godlearners were powerful because of their philosophies and their magic, not just because of their sorcery. They were master heroquestors, they combined sorcery with divine worship, they manipulated the hero planes and systemised the theories of magic use. Sorcery is just one of their magical abilities.

There are other sorcerers in Glorantha who use sorcery spells and who are not Godlearners or Jrusteli. The Brithini, Carmanians and Arkati are three examples but there are probably many more.

So, the argument that Mongoose Sorcery is more powerful because the Jrusteli were more powerful doesn't really wash.

The Spellbook seems poorly thought out to me, so I'd only use it as a guideline. I certainly wouldn;t make all the spells commonly available.

Just my opinion.

 

[Deleriad]

The Spellbook seems poorly thought out to me, so I'd only use it as a guideline. I certainly wouldn;t make all the spells commonly available.

I'm not sure I would ever use more than 1/2 dozen sorcery spells from the Spellbook, the section is basically a disaster. After a while I realised that I had read through all the spells a couple of times and not once had I thought "cool, nice idea."

I can't be bothered to look at the Rune Magic or Divine Magic in there so I can't comment on them. I had a brief scan over some divine spells and didn't see any immediate problems but, again, they didn't inspire me. I think this is heading into the realms of off-topic death now though.

 

[Rurik]

So, the argument that Mongoose Sorcery is more powerful because the Jrusteli were more powerful doesn't really wash.

I don't think anyone is making that argument though. I've said repeatedly I think MRQ Sorcery (and magic as a whole) is less poweful than in RQ3.

But Sorcery is supposed to be poweful, and the God learners are supposed to be better at it than others. Magic of Glorantha says so, and gives them some spells that are improved if used by a God Learner, and some other spells, including the ones for HeroQuesting. Carmanians, Arkati, and Mostali don't get the improved versions, so are less powerful, if only marginally.

The Godlearners were powerful because of their philosophies and their magic, not just because of their sorcery. They were master heroquestors, they combined sorcery with divine worship, they manipulated the hero planes and systemised the theories of magic use. Sorcery is just one of their magical abilities.

All of their power is represented through MRQ as Sorcery though. How do they master HeroQuests? by using the sorcery spells in MoG and Jrustela specific to HeroQuesting. Sorcery is the means by which they manipulate the hero planes, at least in MRQ rules terms.

 

[Mugen]

The Spellbook seems poorly thought out to me, so I'd only use it as a guideline. I certainly wouldn;t make all the spells commonly available.

Just my opinion.

Mine too. Almost none of the sorcery spells in this book have the right "generic" feel that a Sorcery spell should (IMHO) have.

Note that this was also the case for the few spells presented in Lankhmar.

 

[Nickbergquist]

Or a year of real time and you have a player who is consistently, ridiculously out of balance to the rest of the party.

Are you speaking from experience or just making it up?
For example, a really solid weekly campaign lasting a year might net what, 150 Improvement Rolls.
What does it take to make an uber powerful sorceror? Well you need mastery of the 5 arts and, presumably, to have mastered 5 spells. That would seem like an absolute minimum for an uber-sorceror. Assuming that he starts with 17 INT and 18 POW (to make a nice round 35% base score). 150 rolls, 10 skills, 15 rolls per skill maybe +45% to each skill. Without seeing the RQ spellbook then you have to jury rig the starting stats but lets say he manages to get about 150 percentiles in sorcery related skills during cha-gen then you can just about make mastery of 5 spells and 5 arts.
Admittedly you still need to learn to read and you are going to have to buy or plunder all your magical equipment unless you start learning some enchantments (and then having to spend a lot of your IRs on getting your POW back).
So, yes, after 50 or so gaming sessions your sorceror is pretty hard but pretty inflexible and you probably have to sacrifice some of your IRs for Persistence, Language and so on.


A warrior type probably needs to master only 5 skills rather than 10 so they can devote 30 IRs to their favourite weapons - probably around +70. Given that most warriors come out of cha gen with +55 in their main weapon then you should be looking at 120 or so in their best skills plus legendary abilities and magical support. Nothing stopping them Dedicating their POW down to 1 for a load of divine magic etc.

It seems unlikely that sorceror is unbalanced. As with any high-level campaign (which it would be) the sorceror gets to be the heavy artillery but, unless you have an illusionist or an animator, the sorceror is very inflexible.

I've tried building a seriously uber-sorcerer....it's hard to do from scratch without adding one level beyond legendary, which I like to call "Son of the Gods."

This is one case where the potential power level of a sorcerer just doesn't hold up to the reality, necessarily; especially since spell acquisition is easily regulated by the GM...you simply make finding teachers and sources harder. Plus, a really good sorcerer probably still couldn't dodge a baby dragon newt's toothless bite if he tried, and is probably weak as a kitten, to boot. Still....if he does get lucky on a lot of improvement rolls, he could pull off a few very powerful stunts on a semi-regular basis....

So far in my RQ campaigns I've been lucky because most of the players are unfamiliar with MRQ, and only one knows about RQ2/3, and he's made a few assumptions, I think, that prevent him from seeing the potentially manaical power levels in sorcerery if he goes power-mad. I, of course, have been humbly leaving them in the dark while I design some bad-ass villain sorcerers to torture them with, heh!

 

[Ssendam]

I have been reading this thread with some interest as I am going through the Sorcery rules now.

It appears to me that sorcerers are very weak, (to the point of being able to do little useful with spells), when they start out.

As time goes on then they don't improve quickly, not only because each spell and all the manipulations need to be developed separately but also because even when they improve a manipulation the next "level" allows such a marginal change that often it doesn't mean much.

Then suddenly, they get to the realms of being able to effect man-sized figures and the power seems overkill, (or maybe not as I think you need skills of 160% to effect SIZ 16 creatures).

I guess to me it just looks like the progression is not a smooth one.

As a counter argument, there are a few "mid-range" spells like Palsy where a level of manipulation of 70-80% can effect a limb.

I guess what I'm driving at is that I don't mind the system but it doesn't quite seem to work .. yet. Perhaps the spell list is too short?

Stay Frosty

 

[Deleriad]

I guess to me it just looks like the progression is not a smooth one.

As a counter argument, there are a few "mid-range" spells like Palsy where a level of manipulation of 70-80% can effect a limb.

I guess what I'm driving at is that I don't mind the system but it doesn't quite seem to work .. yet. Perhaps the spell list is too short?

Actually there are some spells that are useful - possibly too useful - at Magnitude 1. Smother is the main one. Because a Magnitude 1 spell costs 0MP to cast (presuming you aren't manipulating it) then suddenly what you have is "free", useful magic. Dominate Species is another one where for 0MPs you can take total control of an individual. Similarly Fly is both massively overpowered - for 0MPs you can hang someone upside down - and inflexible because there's no way of flying anything with a SIZ over your POW.

On the other hand, there are many spells which aren't useful until you have about 150% in Magnitude - the illusions and Shapechange come to mind.

Basically I think you're right in that there aren't enough spells, and the ones there are are all over the place in playability terms. I've found myself having to rewrite a whole bunch of spells in a way that asks:
* what effect does this spell have when cast unmanipulated for 0MPs?
* that Magnitude 5 ought to be enough to effect an average human.
* that Magnitude 10 (91%+) ought to be devastating to an average sized human.

So for example, I've broken Fly into two different spells.
1. Fly. You allow others to fly under THEIR control. At Mag 1 you lift SIZ up to POW and each extra Mag allows an extra multiple of POW or an extra 1m MOV
2. Levitate. You can levitate targets under YOUR control. Each 1 Mag affects up to 3 SIZ.