Some thoughts on Starports (non 3I rules)

[sideranautae]

As I was looking at creating starport type generation rules, my thoughts turned to "Up" and "Down" components. Once you get to TL 9 and grav drives. Lifting material to orbit (or beyond) is trivial. That coupled with other tech advances means that large, orbital stations are financially feasible given enough trade.

Now, if I'm running a planetary gov do I want a bunch of starships run by financially insignificant entities (many of which may be armed or carry dangerous material) to actually LAND on my planet? No. I think that the closest I'd let them get would be geosync orbit. At a space station.

This also protects a homeworld job market of cargo shuttling and people movers.

 

[GypsyComet]

You can keep a lot of local haulers busy by moving the Up Station out to the 100-diameter jump horizon (or whatever equivalent you use in another setting).

 

[sideranautae]

You can keep a lot of local haulers busy by moving the Up Station out to the 100-diameter jump horizon (or whatever equivalent you use in another setting).

I could see setting up like that in a peaceful sector.

 

[Infojunky]

Using a lot of the same reasoning is how I came up with the basis for my current Campaign Idea.

The other huge part of it is that a Space-based group is doing the exploration and colonisation while habitable planets are a valuable resource, but only that as a resource. Attractiveness of system is judged by the number of Belts, Gas Giants and other potential planetary bodies (I use 1/2d6 rounded down)

 

[dragoner]

Most of my worlds use the Highport as the hub, with shuttles to the surface, a lot use the downport as well.

 

[sideranautae]

I figure too that it would cut down turn around time for Traders. No fiddling with gravity well, de-orits, etc.

 

[GypsyComet]

Colonization patterns and available tech will influence this sort of thing. A culture that doesn't need habitable worlds (due to really good life support tech, for example) won't fixate on them as much, while cultures that need to recharge ship's air from an actual planet periodically will not stray far from their available pit stops and likely prefer Down Ports when given an option.

 

[sideranautae]

Colonization patterns and available tech will influence this sort of thing. A culture that doesn't need habitable worlds (due to really good life support tech, for example) won't fixate on them as much, while cultures that need to recharge ship's air from an actual planet periodically will not stray far from their available pit stops and likely prefer Down Ports when given an option.

No matter the TL, "humans" will prefer to NOT live inside metal tubes all their life. But, will prefer planets where they can go outside without portable LS systems. I'm talking about TL's high enough to have Jump. No one at that TL requires habitable planets to recharge air supply. We're just talking about N & O.

 

[phavoc]

Locations of stations, wayports, orbital warehouses and downports are always going to vary by the system, the population, and it's needs.

For systems that are in pretty peaceful areas, it makes more sense to put orbital stations about 95diameters out to minimize the transit time for liners and freighters. Once they've passed customs they want to dump their cargo, refuel and pick up the newest one as fast as possible. Even in space time is money.

Downports will always exist on populated worlds. You'll have the primary, which is Imperial territory, and then any satellite ones. Passengers will need a central place to pick up a shuttle. Downports will also (typically) have lower rates for ships to dock at since you aren't taking up valuable hangar space. It's far cheaper to build a landing pad than it is to build a hangar against vacuum's. Even with cheap costs to lift mass from the planet, it's still much more expensive in cost to maintain a station. Higher tech worlds will most likely put more things in orbit because they can. But lower tech worlds won't. Even at TL9, it may be far cheaper for them to have ground-based ports than orbital ones. Sure, you CAN lift using gravitics to orbit, but it's cheaper to do it at higher TL's since your equipment is more efficient at doing so.

Plus a lot of cargo is destined for the planet anyways, right? It may be cheaper to have it land at the mainport or a satellite port that is closer to its final destination to offload. Otherwise you'll have just as much (or more) shuttle traffic going to-fro planetside to stations to pickup and drop off the cargo and passengers.

It's really going to depend on how you want to set things up for your playing environment. Do your PC's need to be on the ground or in orbit for you to run parts of your adventure? Organize your starports along the lines of how you see your adventures progressing. It's easy enough to justify either method.

 

[GypsyComet]

We're just talking about N & O.

And all the other things mixed in after living in the same air for weeks. Filtration is non trivial, and just because we can doesn't mean everyone can.

If your setting assumptions make this a non-issue, then that's what it is.

 

[sideranautae]

We're just talking about N & O.

And all the other things mixed in after living in the same air for weeks. Filtration is non trivial, and just because we can doesn't mean everyone can.
.

If WE can that means those with higher technology can. My setting assumption is the TL 9 is > than TL 7 in technological ability. In MGT the assumption is the same.

 

[AndrewW]

Downports will always exist on populated worlds. You'll have the primary, which is Imperial territory, and then any satellite ones. Passengers will need a central place to pick up a shuttle. Downports will also (typically) have lower rates for ships to dock at since you aren't taking up valuable hangar space. It's far cheaper to build a landing pad than it is to build a hangar against vacuum's. Even with cheap costs to lift mass from the planet, it's still much more expensive in cost to maintain a station. Higher tech worlds will most likely put more things in orbit because they can. But lower tech worlds won't. Even at TL9, it may be far cheaper for them to have ground-based ports than orbital ones. Sure, you CAN lift using gravitics to orbit, but it's cheaper to do it at higher TL's since your equipment is more efficient at doing so.

Doesn't have to be a hangar, could use some docking arms, or just sit off the station. Can use small craft to get over to the station.

 

[phavoc]

Downports will always exist on populated worlds. You'll have the primary, which is Imperial territory, and then any satellite ones. Passengers will need a central place to pick up a shuttle. Downports will also (typically) have lower rates for ships to dock at since you aren't taking up valuable hangar space. It's far cheaper to build a landing pad than it is to build a hangar against vacuum's. Even with cheap costs to lift mass from the planet, it's still much more expensive in cost to maintain a station. Higher tech worlds will most likely put more things in orbit because they can. But lower tech worlds won't. Even at TL9, it may be far cheaper for them to have ground-based ports than orbital ones. Sure, you CAN lift using gravitics to orbit, but it's cheaper to do it at higher TL's since your equipment is more efficient at doing so.

Doesn't have to be a hangar, could use some docking arms, or just sit off the station. Can use small craft to get over to the station.

True. Some ships will use launches and such to move back and forth. And I'm sure there will be a few obligatory taxi's for those ships that don't. Docking arms would allow for airlock access, not really cargo hatches though. Plus the docking arms still take up station space, whether its a full-sized hangar or docking arms set far enough away from the main body of the station to allow for vessels to properly dock.

It works well enough for crew and such, but there's no way, for example for a free trader to unload it's cargo without a way to open up the hatches, or have a goodly-sized lighter or shuttle be able to fully mate with it's cargo bay doors (in a non-sexual way!). Same would go for most freighters. They would need to be able to open their main cargo bay hatches to offload the bulk of their cargo.

 

[AndrewW]

True. Some ships will use launches and such to move back and forth. And I'm sure there will be a few obligatory taxi's for those ships that don't. Docking arms would allow for airlock access, not really cargo hatches though. Plus the docking arms still take up station space, whether its a full-sized hangar or docking arms set far enough away from the main body of the station to allow for vessels to properly dock.

Actually, docking arms don't allow for airlock access. Just transfer of fuel and such. But space wise docking arms allow for a much larger ship then would be supported in the same space with an internal hangar.

It works well enough for crew and such, but there's no way, for example for a free trader to unload it's cargo without a way to open up the hatches, or have a goodly-sized lighter or shuttle be able to fully mate with it's cargo bay doors (in a non-sexual way!). Same would go for most freighters. They would need to be able to open their main cargo bay hatches to offload the bulk of their cargo.

Yup, most cargo transfer would make use of small craft going between the station and the shp.

 

[Infojunky]

It works well enough for crew and such, but there's no way, for example for a free trader to unload it's cargo without a way to open up the hatches, or have a goodly-sized lighter or shuttle be able to fully mate with it's cargo bay doors (in a non-sexual way!). Same would go for most freighters. They would need to be able to open their main cargo bay hatches to offload the bulk of their cargo.

That depends on the design of the merchant, several recent iterations of the A2 have been depicted with substantial port and starboard docking rings.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Just some logistics thoughts.

Port near 100d limit.
This concept needs enough trade to supposedly warrant such. Off the top of my head, this criteria is also what makes it unlikely. Several megacorp liners with thousands of tons of cargo to unload and move in system. That's a lot of cargo to move. Would this be done by small craft? Also, that's a lot of fuel to haul out to refuel the big cargo ships. I'd think it both time saving and cost effective to bring the cargo closer to the offload site and refuel closer to the source.

That said, I wonder if it might make sense for a system that is a large crossroads to have a staging point where cargoes not destined for the local market are transferred from one ship to another or to some warehouse facility.

How about some systems using a moon?

 

[sideranautae]

Just some logistics thoughts.

Port near 100d limit.
This concept needs enough trade to supposedly warrant such. Off the top of my head, this criteria is also what makes it unlikely. Several megacorp liners with thousands of tons of cargo to unload and move in system. That's a lot of cargo to move. Would this be done by small craft? Also, that's a lot of fuel to haul out to refuel the big cargo ships. I'd think it both time saving and cost effective to bring the cargo closer to the offload site and refuel closer to the source.

That said, I wonder if it might make sense for a system that is a large crossroads to have a staging point where cargoes not destined for the local market are transferred from one ship to another or to some warehouse facility.

How about some systems using a moon?

I think the equation (I don't know the answer) would involve saving ~1 day time for the big freighters by having a 100D station vs. the cost of moving fuel & freight to/from planet/100D station.

I think that most mega-freighters will be unstreamlined and as low M-drive rating as practical.

Any logs experts around?

 

[phavoc]

Actually, docking arms don't allow for airlock access. Just transfer of fuel and such. But space wise docking arms allow for a much larger ship then would be supported in the same space with an internal hangar.

Well, I guess it depends on how you envision the docking arm to be like. I was thinking something along the lines of jetways today, that could allow airlock access. In theory you could have a much larger one that attached where the cargo hatches are, but it seems like an awful lot of extra effort and you still have to deal with loading/unloading containers and bulk cargo.

Yup, most cargo transfer would make use of small craft going between the station and the shp.

A 95ton shuttle would have problems, potentially, docking it's rear hatch to say a 400ton subsidized merchant. And moving cargo by hand through regular airlocks is just plain silly. Potentially you could use lighters or maybe some ugly looking ships that could dock with a whole host of ships to get cargo. But for smaller ones, I think it would be almost a requirement to either user a hanger in space or land on the planet.

Though I would suspect most everything is hauled in containers, so at least those are faster to load/unload bulk wise.

I've always envisioned that busy cargo routes would be serviced by regularly-scheduled super freighters. They'd jump into system and head towards their normal orbital warehouse/station and then drop off say 200, 500 or 1000dton containers that were full of smaller containers. It would be like the old LASH setup, except this time they wouldn't need all the extra junk a barge needs on an inland waterway.

The station would be about 90-95D out, just in case somebody over-jumped or had an emergency while inbound. A little distance makes for a safety margin. While the ships containers were being swapped out the ship would get refueled, take on provisions or supplies, and then move out and jump again. For ships that stayed at the edge of the jump well and did something like that they wouldn't often have to travel long distances so you could get away with a low G drive. Might suck to be crew on them, but even they could be swapped out, kind of like how Z trains swap out crews on coast-to-coast runs.

Err, for those that are train grognards, a Z train is usually a container freight that moves across country, sometimes across multiple train companies rails. About every 8-10hrs, it stops long enough to swap out crews and take on fuel. And then it's gone again. They move mile long trains coast to coast in 48hrs or less. It's very efficient for high-dollar goods. Bulk cargos though, at least usually, can take weeks because its cheaper, and things like coal or gain or whatever can take their time.

 

[AndrewW]

Well, I guess it depends on how you envision the docking arm to be like. I was thinking something along the lines of jetways today, that could allow airlock access. In theory you could have a much larger one that attached where the cargo hatches are, but it seems like an awful lot of extra effort and you still have to deal with loading/unloading containers and bulk cargo.

Well, going specifically by the docking arms in Space Stations (I know it's not out yet...).

A 95ton shuttle would have problems, potentially, docking it's rear hatch to say a 400ton subsidized merchant. And moving cargo by hand through regular airlocks is just plain silly. Potentially you could use lighters or maybe some ugly looking ships that could dock with a whole host of ships to get cargo. But for smaller ones, I think it would be almost a requirement to either user a hanger in space or land on the planet.

Though I would suspect most everything is hauled in containers, so at least those are faster to load/unload bulk wise.

Agreed, there's always something like the Atmospheric Freight Pod (has two grappling arms) or Utility Pod (docking clamp to connect right up to a cargo container).

I've always envisioned that busy cargo routes would be serviced by regularly-scheduled super freighters. They'd jump into system and head towards their normal orbital warehouse/station and then drop off say 200, 500 or 1000dton containers that were full of smaller containers. It would be like the old LASH setup, except this time they wouldn't need all the extra junk a barge needs on an inland waterway.

Same here for some stuff.

 

[GypsyComet]

We're just talking about N & O.

And all the other things mixed in after living in the same air for weeks. Filtration is non trivial, and just because we can doesn't mean everyone can.
.

If WE can that means those with higher technology can. My setting assumption is the TL 9 is > than TL 7 in technological ability. In MGT the assumption is the same.

But can we? The ISS gets a lot of supplies, including significant life support assistance. Submarines use expendable resources to keep their air clean.

Starships might get away with it, but what about a station large enough to act as a busy cargo hub? That's a lot of people and a lot of volume of air to keep clean, not to mention replace, since you are opening BIG airlocks frequently. Even the best seals leak a little, and that's a lot of oxygen candles.

Long term isolated and stable biospheres are still beyond us. They might be trivial by TL9, or they might not. A hypothetical space-faring society may also be TL9 only in a few areas, like drives, and lag in others. TL is a fuzzy concept.

Again, you've obviously decided it is not an issue for your setting. Don't assume that it holds for every setting.