Social Standing of the Children of Nobles in OTU

[Cleon the Mad]

Something I always wondered...

How do you handle the Social Standing of the children of Nobles when GMing the OTU?

To give an example, let's say Count Eneri (Social Standing E/14) has three legit children, and due to a daliance with a maid in his youth has one other child that's older then his three legit children, but is illegit for at least legal purposes.

Okay, what is the social standing of:

Illegit but oldest child:
Oldest legit. (presumed heir)
Middle legit.
Youngest legit.

I'll ignore gender since at least the 3rd Imperium doesn't seem to worry about gender with regards to heirs and so forth.

Same question, but lower social standing, let's have Sir Jensen (Social Standing 11, a Knight) have four children. Coincedently same situation.

I'll post how I've done it if/when I get a few replies, but curious to see how others have first.

 

[StephenT]

Basically use the British system of nobility. Parent can distribute titles among his children as he pleases.

That's not the British system, at least not for the last 950 years or so. Titles are inherited according to strict rules, with no discretion.

As for the Third Imperium, it was discussed in great detail in the GT book 'Nobles'. But to sum up:

Every Imperial title has rules determining inheritance, and these aren't necesarily the same. In the majority of cases, the oldest acknowledged child of the noble is the heir. In the case of your Count Eneri, that means the illegitimate child of the maid is, in fact, his heir.

However, the Imperium is pragmatic. If one of their subcultures has particular rules on inheritance - for example only allowing legitimate children to inherit - then the Emperor would have specified in the original Letter Patent creating that noble title that it should be inherited according to the world's customs.

It's even possible that Count Eneri's heir would be the first child born on that planet after his death, if the world's religious beliefs included transmigration of souls and the Emperor agreed to recognise that when that world joined the Imperium...

But primogeniture is by far the most common form of inheritance. Adoption and cloning are recognised as well as natural childbirth.

As for status and titles, this is how GT described it:

Only the actual noble (Count Eneri) has the privileges and powers of nobilty.

His designated and acknowleged heir - let's call her Ella - is given a courtesy rank one level below her father's. So in this case she'd be SOC 13, and treated as a Viscount. However, she's addressed just by rank and first name ("Viscountess Ella") because she doesn't actually have a noble title.

The Count's other children are given the courtesy title of 'Lord' or 'Lady' plus their full name.

Knighthoods are not hereditary, so a knight's child has no special status or title. A baronet's heir would have the title "The Honourable <name>".

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Okay, so if I am following this reply, Count Eneri's heir, since Count Eneri has a SS of 14 would have a SS of 13. His other children though, what would be their social standing score? An 11? A 12?

As for the Knight's children, I think setting their's at 10, with the knight of course being at 11 might be the best.

Anyway, guess I was hoping for some suggestions/ideas of what specific score you'd assign each child in both of my examples.

 

[cbrunish]

Okay, so if I am following this reply, Count Eneri's heir, since Count Eneri has a SS of 14 would have a SS of 13. His other children though, what would be their social standing score? An 11? A 12?

As for the Knight's children, I think setting their's at 10, with the knight of course being at 11 might be the best.

Anyway, guess I was hoping for some suggestions/ideas of what specific score you'd assign each child in both of my examples.

Would have to agree with you. The lesser children of the Count would probably be an 11 (B) and the illegitimate child would depend on the relationship to his current wife as to whether he would even acknowledge it. And I always assumed that the Knight's children would be a 10 (A).

But what social standing is a baronet? Is it a 12 (C). Then what would differentiate between a baronet and baron?

 

[GothiousRex]

firstly, social status does not necessarily entail a direct noble title.

A character with SS 15(F) is not necessarily a Duke, he may be the child of the Duke, or someone from a wealthy family with as much import in the Imperium as a Duke.

The Noble Title table simplicizes it, but in reality the title and the social status could be very different.

eg. a Baron of a shamed family in the Imperium (perhaps for associating with but not actively supporting a noble traitor) could and should very well have a lower Social Status than the typical Baron to reflect the loss of trust in his family, though by noble tradition he may still retain his ancestral right to the peerage.

and inversely, a wealthy private family could refuse noble title honours to remain private yet they would still have a high Social Status.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

In Mongoose's version, all three of the legitimate heirs would be SS10. They only way they could increase that SS is to enlist in the Noble Career. But there are SS10s and SS10s..

The Illegitimate child might be 1 better than his mother, or SS10 depending on culture.

 

[ninthcouncil]

In Mongoose's version, all three of the legitimate heirs would be SS10. They only way they could increase that SS is to enlist in the Noble Career.

That doesn't make sense; it would render nobility non-hereditary and conflict with character generation, where it's possible to have a tyro character with SOC 12 before any career terms, Noble or otherwise.

One of those kids is going to inherit the title of Count and will attain the relevant SOC when they do so. They don't even have to go through the Noble career at any point.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

No, it makes perfect sense if you consider that past SS11 it is noble titles. So if you are a SS12, you are a Baron and rule a small world or part of a major world. Your children are SS10 (maybe 11) until they inherit the title then they become the higher social status. The Noble career is how you would track that child through the learning years prior to, or after, inheriting.

Basically, you are not going to become a Sector Duke by being in the Military, you can get knighted, but you won't be a ruling noble unless you spend time as a ruling noble (in the Noble career).

 

[GothiousRex]

Basically, you are not going to become a Sector Duke by being in the Military, you can get knighted, but you won't be a ruling noble unless you spend time as a ruling noble (in the Noble career).

Actually, with a good roll you could start generation with a 12(C) and take terms in the Navy where you have a good chance of getting +1 Soc in the Mustering Out benefits table.

A Duke by way of the military is certainly possible, even reasonably likely if done this way.
I rolled an Admiral this way. He did 8 terms and got to 15(F) and still had extra +1 Soc rolls that became 2 Ship Shares.

Rank 6 with 8 terms is 8 rolls on benefits (assuming 3 money rolls) which isn't out of the realm of possibility to hit Soc bonuses multiple times.

However, my take on Soc is less literal. Your Social Standing can be indicative of a noble title but it need not be. It represents your standing, power and influence in the Imperium. I see the titles as representative of the level of standing on average. ie if you have Soc 15(F), then you have about as much influence in the Imperium as a Duke would. Perhaps, your Dad is the CEO of a MegaCorp, that'd be a lot of pull.

 

[ninthcouncil]

No, it makes perfect sense if you consider that past SS11 it is noble titles.

Which are hereditary.... You're getting hung up on answering the question from the character generation direction, but that's not what it's about, the existence of the title of Count is already a given. It's about inheritance, and the fact is that one of Count Eneri's kids is going to end up as the Count(ess) when he dies (unless they all die first, and Uncle Bert gets it instead). The main argument is about the SOC of the remaining children, and the "interim" SOC of the heir apparent, and I think Cleon the Mad and cbrunish have that covered satisfactorily above.

 

[Jame Rowe]

I've been doing it as most are either SOC-10, or if they have a SOC-11+ at CG then they have a small title.

 

[GothiousRex]

In modern day Peerage rules,

The sons and daughters are accorded the right to use lesser titles of their family.

Duke Izar of Rhylanor may also have lesser secondary titles say Marquis of the Ramparts, Count of New New York, OverBaron of Rhylanor.

The Duke is allowed to travel incognito using these lesser titles and he may also impart them to his heirs while he retains the chief title.

So the Duke's son Marcus would be the Marquis of the Ramparts.

With a literal interpretation of the Social Status-Noble Title table, he would have a Soc 14(E) until he became the Duke.

Marriage to a noble does not (of itself) grant title. The Duke's wife would still be a commoner if she didn't previously have a title. Knights and Baronets are still commoners though honoured ones.

I interpret Soc less literally and have it represent the amount of influence/money/pull/weight you have in the Imperium.

In my opinion the sons and daughters of a Duke would likely also have the same Soc as the Duke, they would have wealth/connections of their own plus could also use his status indirectly.

They need not actually have a title, the Duke's commoner wife would also have Soc 15(F) even though she has no title.

In MTU, two different Dukes could also have different Soc ratings, say one is a SectorDuke of Vland whereas the other is the BlackSheep of a poorer less travelled fringe Sector.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

To be clear, my questions were with regards to before the heir of Count Eneri in my example inheirted, if that helps matters any with this discussion.

 

[Dietrich hault-Rauln]

To give an example, let's say Count Eneri (Social Standing E/14) has three legit children, and due to a daliance with a maid in his youth has one other child that's older then his three legit children, but is illegit for at least legal purposes.

To be clear, my questions were with regards to before the heir of Count Eneri in my example inheirted, if that helps matters any with this discussion.

Illegit child has Soc of mother and probably no title (though the English Royals did occasionally bestow a minor title on an illegitimate child.

There appear to be several ways of handling titles for legitimate children - one style is that all the children of the Count have the title "Count" ie in Italy. In the UK, the heir to the Count (or Earl) uses a lesser 'courtesy' title until daddy pops his clogs

See this article on Courtesy titles on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtesy_title
which also has a handy little table for working out the what and the who.

Hope this helps

 

[GothiousRex]

you can also look here for info
http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Nobility

 

[Dietrich hault-Rauln]

you can also look here for info
http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Nobility

Hmm, doesn't really have much on what the original poster asked about, ie how the SOC of the kiddies was handled.

It looks a bit like "Houserule time", or "Accepted useage in this sector is ..."

My feeling would lean toward giving the kids the SOC of any courtesy title, and any left-overs are styled "The Honourable" with an effective SOC of 10 or 11 (you need SOC 10 to 'get into' the Nobles and 11 is the SOC of a Knight).

If you're interested in doing more with Nobles, and are old enough to remember the article 'Robe and Blaster' from a very (very) early White Dwarf, here's a variant http://members.ozemail.com.au/~iandl57/Page19.html that could be a bit of fun.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Think what I am going to do in my two examples:

a) Count Eneri and his children:

Count has SS of 14. Heir has 14 also, but his title is honorary. When Eneri dies or if he does, abdicates for whatever reason, Heir gets the full title.

Other legit children. Guess I'd call them an 11, even if they don't have actual knighthoods, although it's possible one or more may have a greater title too.

Illegit child: SS 10 if father does recognize the child as his. If not and the mother doesn't force the issue with a paternity test, her SS.

b) Children of the Knight, all SS 10. Illegit one as above.

Or the short version: More or less a lower SS unless they inherit the parent's main title, and somewhat wing it.

 

[Dietrich hault-Rauln]

Sounds good to me

For one of my player's Noble character, I actually worked up a full family tree going back several generations and spreading out to second and third cousins. This actually created a cluster of minor estates (like some of those little German principalities prior to Bismark - Coburg-Goethe, Coburg-Goethe-Saxe, etc (apologies for mutilating the German nobility!)) and made setting up intra-familial rivalries, to go long with the usual inter-family conflicts, very easy as well.

I tend to use a House Minor/House Major system for the Nobility in MTU. Houses Major are the planet/subsector/sector ruling nobility and are immensley powerful. Houses Minor are the Merchantile Houses (bankers, lawyers, industrialists) and the minor nobility. The SOC grades tend to be the same for Houses Minor and Major with the planet rulers (Houses Major) using the prefix title 'Siridar' ("great") in front of their title - there are no House Minor Dukes, though. - this system is similar to that used in the 'Dune' novels by Frank Herbert, but with most of the serial numbers filed off :wink:

So the Count of the planet Feor is actually the Siridar-Count of Feor if he rules the planet. House Minor Kryvik are Counts of Jeshurii, an estate on Feor. The head of the House is Count Jeshurii, or Count of Jeshurii, and his overlord is the Siridar-Count of Feor.

You can make it as byzantine as you like. After all, the Nobs have had about 1,000 years to come up with something really twisty! :lol: