Slotting Inferum into D&D Cosmology- Need Help

[Risen of the Pit]

First up, I aplogise if I offend someone by mentioning the... "other complany" here, but as their forums turned out to be as useful as a hip-pocket in a singlet (to borrow the polite version of a rustic phrase), I decided to risk asking here.

The reason I'm here is simple. I'm a big fan of the Infernum setting, and find it a much better take on the "hell-dimension" than either The Abyss or the Nine Hells in D&D. Given the coming release of 4th Edition and its simpler (and superior) cosmology, I thought I'd try and put the Infernum into place as the fiend-land (replacing Abyss and Asmodeus both) for my homebrew campaign setting. The thing is, I'm not sure how to do so- can anyone offer some help, advice, or at least suggestions on things that are likely to be problematic for the 'blend'?

 

[Utgardloki]

I don't see the problem, either with the old or the new D&D cosmology. However, I don't know much about the Infernum setting; I have the books but haven't read them yet.

Do you see anything that might be an obstacle to just plugging Infernum in the appropriate place?

For what it's worth, I consider the new D&D cosmology to just be a corner set in the old D&D cosmology, as modified by yours truly. So if you head on deep enough in the new cosmology Abyss you end up in the old cosmology Abyss.

 

[Risen of the Pit]

Well, off the top of my head...
*The origin of the Pit- Infernum being based on a monotheistic religion and the base-standard for D&D being polytheistic.

*The level of technology/technomancy- though this can be partially explained away as demonic ingenuity coupled with their disdain for safety and life; demons might even use technology/technomancy as an item to tempt mortals.

*The precise location of Hell in the cosmology- the basic 4E cosmology has the Astral Sea up top, with the Dominions floating in it like islands, the Elemental Chaos is the bottom "layer" with the Abyss as it's rotten heart, and the "Middle Worlds" (Creation, Shadowfell, Feywild) orbiting each other in-between.

*Basic interaction between the Mortal World and Hell- vital for being able to use it for adventures.

*How the transition away from Sorcery as a skill (and being used for Rituals) to D&D's magic might alter things. Then again, I think 4E is using "Rituals" for "non-combat-related magic", so there might not be such a problem.

 

[Utgardloki]

I've long been using what I call the "Big Multiverse" theory. The "Big Multiverse" holds that the true size of the multiverse dwarves imagination. This solves a lot of problems, I think.

Well, off the top of my head...
*The origin of the Pit- Infernum being based on a monotheistic religion and the base-standard for D&D being polytheistic.

In the Big Multiverse theory, there are areas which are densely populated by gods, and other areas where gods are scarce. So the Infernum can be in one area where only one god is known, while the D&D Hell is in another area where many gods congregate.

The Big Multiverse theory also has the principle that no matter how powerful you are, there are an infinite number of beings whose power level so far dwarves yours that you are insignificant to them. So there could be one really powerful "monotheistic god" and whatever D&D gods, demigods, et al could be servants, or considered inconsequential by the Big Deity in Charge.

*The level of technology/technomancy- though this can be partially explained away as demonic ingenuity coupled with their disdain for safety and life; demons might even use technology/technomancy as an item to tempt mortals.

I've long considered this as part of the Big Multiverse. Just as the Prime Material Plane has worlds with advanced technology and worlds with primitive technology, so Hell also has reasons of advanced or primitive technology.

*The precise location of Hell in the cosmology- the basic 4E cosmology has the Astral Sea up top, with the Dominions floating in it like islands, the Elemental Chaos is the bottom "layer" with the Abyss as it's rotten heart, and the "Middle Worlds" (Creation, Shadowfell, Feywild) orbiting each other in-between.

I guess Hell can be wherever you want to put it. It could be one of the Dominions, perhaps far away from any D&D campaign you run, or it could be deep in the Abyss.

Without having much knowledge of Infernum, I might be tempted to make it a "Middle World" off to one side. When I read the 4E overview, my mind came up with alternate middle worlds besides Shadowfell and Feywild (my favorite is Cthonia, which is like the Elemental Plane of Earth but much more hospitable and interesting).

My basic idea is that the D&D world is "close to" Shadowfell and Feywild. Farther away is Cthonia, which is "close to" Earth. Other middle worlds include Lemuria and Inferna (though it would be confusing to have both an Inferna and an Infernum).

*Basic interaction between the Mortal World and Hell- vital for being able to use it for adventures.

I guess it depends on how much interaction you wish. My Big Multiverse theory says that Hell is huge, humungous, really really mind-boggling large. So large that even the devils do not understand how large it is.

How large is Hell? Consider, in the Prime Material Plane, there are balls of incandescent gas that are hundreds of millions of miles across (giant stars). In Hell, there are also such balls of incandescent gas, but occasionally one will set on the infernal plane, leaving a pit hundreds of millions of miles across. This pit may even fill with water from the River Styx or Lethe or any of a trillion other enchanted rivers. And yet you could, if you had time, trudge through the plane for trillions of miles without ever seeing a hint of such a sea.

My point is that it is, in the Big Multiverse, very easy to make a region of Hell as isolated, or as connected, as you wish.

*How the transition away from Sorcery as a skill (and being used for Rituals) to D&D's magic might alter things. Then again, I think 4E is using "Rituals" for "non-combat-related magic", so there might not be such a problem.

In the Big Multiverse theory, there may very well be multiple ways of performing magic. This could allow you to have an Infernum campaign and a "normal" D&D campaign in the same universe.

Another thought about the Big Multiverse: the descriptions in the "Manual of the Planes" can be considered to have been written by travellers to the planes, but such travellers may or may not have ended up in a representative portion of that plane. In my own GM'ing experience, I've had a player record the same world as both a jungle world and a desert world, by assuming that the conditions in his immediate vicinity applied to the entire world.

I hope these ideas help.

 

[Risen of the Pit]

Thanks for your own ideas on cosmological layout, but I think I'll stick closer to the base- the infinte amount of infinities was one of the aspects of the older edition cosmologies that I had the most problems with.

I do have some vague ideas for altering the cosmology, but I'm unsure just how well they work. Can anyone give me any input?

The basic idea is that no one knows what happened in "the beginning", though each faith likely has its own claims, but when existence first began there were only two worlds; the Astral Sea above, the Elemental Chaos below, and an empty void in between.

Because Primordials, which mainly linger in the core 4E setting as the Demon Princes in the Abyss, seem non-essential, I was thinking of having it that life first formed within the Astral Sea, sometimes referred to as the World of Spirit. These beings were the Gods, and eventually they became aware of the World of Matter, the Elemental Chaos, and travelled down to investigate.

There, they discovered they possessed the ability to manipulate this creation-stuff, and eventually set to creating The First Work, the Middle World that would later be referred to as Hell. When finished, the Gods were deeply disappointed; as is always the case, even for immortal beings of Pure Spirit, their first attempts at creation had been less than a masterpiece. What they had produced was nothing more than a harsh, ugly world, populated by the grotesque proto-lifeforms now known as Spawn- a place constructed entirely of Matter and thus devoid of the shining light of Spirit.

Like children, the Gods abandoned the First Work in disgust, but eventually resolved to try again- this time they would try incorporating Astral energy, the Spirit element, into their creations. First they set to work with the raw stuff of the elements, for at this time the Gods were still relatively incapable of the "dexterity" needed to shape flesh. I was thinking that their first works would have been the Titans, which are apparently very distorted, and then they would have created the more refined forms of elementals (such as Efreeti) as they gained in skill.

Finally, the Gods felt they had skill enough to try and create a second world- this would become the Mundus, the World of Mortals. I'm unsure of the precise details of the creation of the Feywild & Shadowfell, but I'm thinking along the lines of them being unintentional "echoes", "reflections" of the Mundus cast/created by the vast amounts of Spirit poured into the Second World.

After that, the Gods returned permanently to the Astral Sea, to rest from their labours. But conflict began to arise- not exactly one giant conflict, but a series of smaller and more confined quarrels and disagreements that eventually spilled over into a confused and almost all-encompasing war. It was in this war that Angels, who had first begun sometime before the creation of the Mundus, were truly brought into being as servants of the divinities.

I was thinking that it was towards the end of this conflict that the creation of demons began: the Archangel/Exarch (I might have it that no one agrees/is sure of what it was, or even what its gender was, to add to the mystery) that would found the Demon Race grew tired of serving its unknown master, and eventually managed to persuade some its fellows to join it in rebellion. They took command of their subservient angels and tried to slay their patron, but were defeated after a long and bloody battle. Enraged by this betrayal, the Fallen's God decided that mere death wouldn't be sufficient punishment- the Fallen were cast out of the Astral Sea, plummeting through the Void to smash into the First Work, digging out the Pit with the brutality of their impact.

I was thinking that, to avoid the problems of the angel names (Lucifer, Azazel, etc) that they are known/referred to only by titles; I had reasons to explain this, but the only one I can remember off the top of my head is that, as the demons were slaves, the Fallen wouldn't have considered them worthy (in general) to learn the names of their parents.

Beyond the fact that the reason the God who cast down the Fallen is unknown is because it and its loyalists were destroyed in their weakened condition, the history of Hell proceeded much the same as in Infernum

So, what's your opinion of my ideas/work?

 

[Utgardloki]

I think you have some very good ideas. You should copy them into a word processor and work them into some kind of in-game document the PCs can have access to.

(For my own campaigns I type up a campaign newsletter, which describes the previous session's adventure and also has some notes on the game setting. This would be a good thing to include in the first campaign newsletter, if you are so inclined to do that sort of thing.)

Your idea works well for avoiding creating an infinity of worlds or excessive symmetries. Perhaps Hell does not have an analog of Shadowfell or the Feywild because it was made without spirit matter, and it is the spirit matter that got reflected both ways.

Finally, the Gods felt they had skill enough to try and create a second world- this would become the Mundus, the World of Mortals. I'm unsure of the precise details of the creation of the Feywild & Shadowfell, but I'm thinking along the lines of them being unintentional "echoes", "reflections" of the Mundus cast/created by the vast amounts of Spirit poured into the Second World.

For a multiverse I am working on, I have Infernia, Lemuria and Cthonia existing as "dreams" of the world's inhabitants. But the Bible says that the wicked are not allowed to sleep in Hell. If you take both ideas, then Hell would not spin out dreamworlds the way Creation does. Or perhaps, because Hell was made without spirit matter, it is unable to throw off the kinds of reflections that the Mundane world does.

I was thinking that, to avoid the problems of the angel names (Lucifer, Azazel, etc) that they are known/referred to only by titles; I had reasons to explain this, but the only one I can remember off the top of my head is that, as the demons were slaves, the Fallen wouldn't have considered them worthy (in general) to learn the names of their parents.

Perhaps you can (combining mythologies of the Babylonians and the Hebrews) have an event where God or one of His officials confounded the devils/demons by confounding their names, so that their name is one thing in one region and another name in another, or that multiple names apply to one demon or multiple demons apply to one name. This is one reason why using the demon's title is more common than using his name.

Or, you can take a page from Pier's Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series in which the names the characters are known by are offices that are filled by different individuals at different times. For example, in For Love of Evil, a monk named Perry takes over the office of Satan at some time in the 13th Century.

You have some good ideas in your post.

 

[Risen of the Pit]

So you think that my ideas work? Thanks, that takes a load off my mind and puts me a step further towards my goal. Just one thing, I'll be using the basic D&D approach of polytheism, which is one of the reasons why I was concerned about how to infuse the Infernum into the planes in the first place. The reason the demons don't know who their "grandparent" (the god who cast down the Fallen) was is because the Fallen would never have spoken its name- perhaps they were even under some kind of geas that rendered them unable. Contacts with mortals wouldn't have clarified matters any, as "grandpa" was destroyed during the final days of the War in the Heavens. Most demons probably don't care anyway.

The main problem planalogical now is this: how do souls get into Hell? I agree with your idea that Hell doesn't have Feywild or Shadowfell reflections because it was created with Astral Energy, but I was thinking that there might be "cracks" in the planar fabric of the Shadowfell, through which unlucky souls can slip and end up falling through the Lethe Clouds and into the Pit- as souls already fade away to a place beyond even the knowledge of the gods, the fate of these unfortunates goes equally unmarked.

Two other problems that I can think of are: Demon Princes and Tieflings.

For demon princes, my basic guess is to toss out the 'core guard' of Orcus, Grazzt, Demogorgon, etc; with the Houses, they're superfluous, and they don't exactly fit into the Breeds either. I might use their names as throwaways though- a Grand Duke of Haimon named Orcus, or a Riethii Captain named Grazzt, that sort of thing. The real problem here kind of blends with the question of demon religion. Specifically, the fact that demon-worshipping cults are a traditional facet of D&D- the Drow's patron is Lloth, Demon Queen of Spiders.

Demons can feed on faith in the Infernum setting (see the Temple of the Demon King structure/upgrade in the Book of the Conquerer), but I don't know if demons should be able to grant divine powers to mortal worshippers in the Mundus or if the "priests" of such cults are simply Infernal Pact Warlocks who adopt religions trappings.

One idea that comes to me is that Priests of demons *can* exist, but being able to derive divine power requires a particularly potent sacrifice: the demon and the cleric become linked on a spiritual level, enabling the cleric to draw upon the spark of divinity that powers their demonic master and channel it into spells. This spiritual link grows more and more powerful, allowing the two entities greater depths of communion, until finally the priest is really little more than extension of the demon's mind. And woe to the cleric who dies, for their fate is darker than any covenanted mortal: their spiritual energy, their soul, their very being is drawn through the link and absorbed into their master, their essence assimilated so that the demon acquires their memories, their knowledge and greater fuel for its own powers.

The idea was vaguely inspired by the old fluff for the Chaos Gods in Warhammer, if you're curious.

The other matter is the tieflings; simply, where did they come from? The new fluff in 4E is that, ages ago, a human empire made terrible pacts with Asmodeus and the other Devils and, as a result, their children were born as beings twisted and marked by the devilish pacts of their ancestors. But how I could I explain their existence in my homebrew?

One vague idea that comes to me is that any human who has contact with infernal magic picks up a kind of "taint". Not Corruption, as in the book, but a kind of lingering hellish energy. Unlike Corruption, this taint has no effect on the host, but is passed onto the host's children. For the most part, this has no effect, but sometimes, for reasons no one knows why (though there are many theories), a tainted child is born 'infused' with this energy, creating a tiefling. It's completely unpredictable; a female Infernal Pact Warlock so infused with Corruption that she's practically a demon may give birth to a perfectly human son, while a male Paladin who was once forced to use a demon-possessed sword might find himself the shocked parent of a tiefling daughter.

Tieflings who mate with other tieflings tend to produce new tieflings, but may produce a "carrier" -an otherwise normal human- instead. Tieflings count as humans for cross-breeding with other races, bar the potential that a child will be a "pure" tiefling rather than a human-blood (so a tiefling/elf could produce half-elves or pure tieflings).

This allows me to use something of the Bael Turath fluff, but in this case the effect was that any human or human-blooded being that can trace their ancestry has the possibility of bearing tiefling children. This also helps explain why tieflings aren't discriminated against; anyone could have tiefling sibling, child or other relative. As no one knows why a tiefling is born, most accept them- the existence of bigots and fanatics isn't unheard of though (which gives an extra plothook).

 

[Utgardloki]

So you think that my ideas work? Thanks, that takes a load off my mind and puts me a step further towards my goal. Just one thing, I'll be using the basic D&D approach of polytheism, which is one of the reasons why I was concerned about how to infuse the Infernum into the planes in the first place. The reason the demons don't know who their "grandparent" (the god who cast down the Fallen) was is because the Fallen would never have spoken its name- perhaps they were even under some kind of geas that rendered them unable. Contacts with mortals wouldn't have clarified matters any, as "grandpa" was destroyed during the final days of the War in the Heavens. Most demons probably don't care anyway.

This makes a lot of sense.

The main problem planalogical now is this: how do souls get into Hell? I agree with your idea that Hell doesn't have Feywild or Shadowfell reflections because it was created with Astral Energy, but I was thinking that there might be "cracks" in the planar fabric of the Shadowfell, through which unlucky souls can slip and end up falling through the Lethe Clouds and into the Pit- as souls already fade away to a place beyond even the knowledge of the gods, the fate of these unfortunates goes equally unmarked.

I like this idea. Perhaps the locations of some of these cracks are known and guarded. You can even have a gatehouse set up at one of these cracks, the "Gates of Hell".

Two other problems that I can think of are: Demon Princes and Tieflings.

For demon princes, my basic guess is to toss out the 'core guard' of Orcus, Grazzt, Demogorgon, etc; with the Houses, they're superfluous, and they don't exactly fit into the Breeds either. I might use their names as throwaways though- a Grand Duke of Haimon named Orcus, or a Riethii Captain named Grazzt, that sort of thing. The real problem here kind of blends with the question of demon religion. Specifically, the fact that demon-worshipping cults are a traditional facet of D&D- the Drow's patron is Lloth, Demon Queen of Spiders.

Demons can feed on faith in the Infernum setting (see the Temple of the Demon King structure/upgrade in the Book of the Conquerer), but I don't know if demons should be able to grant divine powers to mortal worshippers in the Mundus or if the "priests" of such cults are simply Infernal Pact Warlocks who adopt religions trappings.

I like the idea of some demons and devils being able to piece the barriers between realms, which allows for connections between the universes, which allows the PCs to potentially be affected and even affect another universe.

One idea that comes to me is that Priests of demons *can* exist, but being able to derive divine power requires a particularly potent sacrifice: the demon and the cleric become linked on a spiritual level, enabling the cleric to draw upon the spark of divinity that powers their demonic master and channel it into spells. This spiritual link grows more and more powerful, allowing the two entities greater depths of communion, until finally the priest is really little more than extension of the demon's mind. And woe to the cleric who dies, for their fate is darker than any covenanted mortal: their spiritual energy, their soul, their very being is drawn through the link and absorbed into their master, their essence assimilated so that the demon acquires their memories, their knowledge and greater fuel for its own powers.

The idea was vaguely inspired by the old fluff for the Chaos Gods in Warhammer, if you're curious.

This idea works for me.

Perhaps in order to support this, the demon/devil needs a special mechanism (macguffin) which can be built, lost, stolen, destroyed, repaired, etc. This could involve PCs into the fun, because all of a sudden this guy named Grazzt seems to be VERY interested in this little gem-studded wheel that's just been taken from his stronghold.

The other matter is the tieflings; simply, where did they come from? The new fluff in 4E is that, ages ago, a human empire made terrible pacts with Asmodeus and the other Devils and, as a result, their children were born as beings twisted and marked by the devilish pacts of their ancestors. But how I could I explain their existence in my homebrew?

One vague idea that comes to me is that any human who has contact with infernal magic picks up a kind of "taint". Not Corruption, as in the book, but a kind of lingering hellish energy. Unlike Corruption, this taint has no effect on the host, but is passed onto the host's children. For the most part, this has no effect, but sometimes, for reasons no one knows why (though there are many theories), a tainted child is born 'infused' with this energy, creating a tiefling. It's completely unpredictable; a female Infernal Pact Warlock so infused with Corruption that she's practically a demon may give birth to a perfectly human son, while a male Paladin who was once forced to use a demon-possessed sword might find himself the shocked parent of a tiefling daughter.

Tieflings who mate with other tieflings tend to produce new tieflings, but may produce a "carrier" -an otherwise normal human- instead. Tieflings count as humans for cross-breeding with other races, bar the potential that a child will be a "pure" tiefling rather than a human-blood (so a tiefling/elf could produce half-elves or pure tieflings).

This allows me to use something of the Bael Turath fluff, but in this case the effect was that any human or human-blooded being that can trace their ancestry has the possibility of bearing tiefling children. This also helps explain why tieflings aren't discriminated against; anyone could have tiefling sibling, child or other relative. As no one knows why a tiefling is born, most accept them- the existence of bigots and fanatics isn't unheard of though (which gives an extra plothook).

This should work, and fit in well with the 4E way of thinking of things.

Now to throw another monkey wrench at you, have you thought about incorporating the Far Realm?

 

[Risen of the Pit]

I'm not exactly sure why you think the Far Realm is a monkey wrench; the basic idea of the Far Realm is that it's the inexplicable/unknown "outside" of the multiverse. Hell, I might even have it that there are actually myriad other planes/worlds in the multiverse of my setting, it's just that most entities are only aware of the base seven (Elemental Chaos, Astral Sea, Mundus, Feywild, Shadowfell, Hell, Far Realm)- that explains where the Brokenlanders and possibly even the Benandanti come from.

Two (I think) new wrenches that came to me on my own have to do with Drow and Dragons (from Io to Dragonborn).

The first and most wrenching wrench is the Drow; specifically, what can I do with them? While there are evil gods in this setting, Lloth is, as far as I know, classified as the Demon Princess of Spiders (yes, I know they use the title Queen, but that's because it sounds better- she's the same power level as Demogorgon or Orcus). As their worship of Lloth, and, by extension, their reliance on demonic magics/demon summoning, is a defining part of Drow culture, how can I 'fix' this given that theocrats of all creeds loathe and despise demons?

One vague idea that comes to me is that Drow are, fundamentally, a group of corrupted elves, but their corruption comes from their fascination with demonic culture. I was thinking that the drow, as a race, are aligned with/servitors of "The Rose Alliance"- that is, they owe loyalty and seek patronage from the demons of both House Astyanath and House Riethii. Forced underground by their horrified kin, the Eladrin and Elves of the surface, they seek to garner power enough to overrun their hated foes, converting those they can and sacrificing those they can't to the appetites of their demonic masters.

This idea, if valid, suggests that the likely "power core" isn't Lloth's priesthood, but basically a union of two demonic cults; The Cult of Pleasure (Riethii) and the Cult of Pain (Astyanath). These are not the 'true power' though- that belongs to a nobility of Drow/Demon half-breeds. The Cults do hold considerable power, though I was thinking that it's at least intimated that this is primarily because their "worship" gives them the most opportunities to father or bear half-demon offspring.

The other wrench relates, in various ways, to dragons. In 4e core, the dragons & dragonborn were made by Io, the Dragon God, whose individualistic/loner nature got him cleaved in half by the adamantine axe of a Primordial, with Bahumat and Tiamat rising from the sundered halves. The thing is, I removed Primordials from my version, so what do I do?

One idea that comes to me was inspired by the Worlds & Monsters' description of how the two halves each embodied opposite traits, as well as by the Ecology of the Lizardfolk article in an issue of Dragon where the Lizardfolk creation myth depicts them as the result of the hermaphroditic god Kecuala, the mate of the likewise-gendered Semaunya, splitting into two seperate entities due to its constant thinking. It basically goes like this:

Io, creator of the dragons, was a strange and powerful god believed by some to have been one of the first to form within the swirling depths of the Astral Sea. Io considered itself a complete entity, for it embodied all things in equal proportion; good, evil, selfishness, generosity, benevolence, tyranny, even male and female, and thus the most perfect. This lead to it being a very individualistic entity, and disliked by the other gods in return for its arrogance. When the War in the Heavens broke out, Io was frequently assaulted, but its great power and legions of dragons (which it likewise considered the most perfect form of mortals, though less so than itself due to having individual genders) meant that none succeeded.

However, it's stubborn aloofness left it at a tactical disadvantage; unwilling to even consider working with a "less perfect" being, it was thus forced to defend its Dominion all on its own, which meant alliances between opponent gods were thus able to steadily gnaw away at the edges of Io's Domionion. This was a source of great frustration to the draconic god, until finally it resolved upon a desperate gambit; even a perfect being could not be in two places at once, but two parts of a perfect being could. And thus it used its power to split into two seperate gods; Bahamut and Tiamat.

For a time, they were able to do what Io could not, but trouble brewed: both had inherited Io's preference for individualism, and worse still the ritual that had created them had made each from opposing traits of Io, which furthered the divide. Finally, the two took to fighting- I'm not sure what over, though I was thinking it might be tied to the loss of Io's dominion. Perhaps it was even this squabble that caused it to *be* lost? Either way, when it was over, the two dragon gods seperated, each taking those surviving dragons loyal to it and retreating to form their own territories. Those dragons who followed Bahamut changed into the Metallic Dragons, those that followed Tiamat become Chromatics.

I was thinking perhaps of tweaking Bahamut and Tiamat some more, just to make them a bit more unique. The most major tweak was that I was thinking of reversing the traditional gender arrangment; in this setting, Bahamut is the Queen of Metallic Dragons, while Tiamat is the King of Chromatic Dragons.

The next tweak, almost as major as the first, is to alter their appearance/title some. I was thinking firstly of making Bahamut the "Mithril Dragon", and thus altering her scale colors- with the Metallic lineup now dumping the copper-alloys for Iron and Adamantine, Platinum doesn't seem so special. Secondly, I was thinking of making Tiamat "The Dragon of No Colors" rather than the Dragon of Many Colors- Tiamat basically appears as a multi-headed drake wrought from solid darkness defined by light.

With the dragons and their patron gods out of the way, my next thought wandered to the new race of 4e; the Dragonborn. Rather than have them be lesser beings created by Io to serve dragonkind, which didn't really seem to fit, I thought to make them a result of the War's end, as well as tying them to why dragons aren't dominating the world.

My basic idea was that, in the beginning, dragons laid great clutches of eggs, like any reptile- this meant a single female could produce up to twenty or more hatchlings in a single batch, which is one of the factors that made them such a deadly defence force during the War in the Heavens. When the War ended and they returned to the Mundus, the other racial patrons beheld this fact and were greatly displeased; at this rate, their own races would be enslaved by dragons, while various gods of nature pointed out such great numbers of dragons would eventually devour all life. In one of the few times since the War that they would come together (the other being the weaving of the Great Curse that makes it so hard to exit from Hell- the relative ease at entering is explained as a "design flaw"), they wove a powerful, mutual enchantment upon all dragons.

To the horror of the dragons, they found their eggs producing not hatchlings, but ghastly creatures that could almost be considered parodies of dragons, creatures that would eventually become called "Dragonborn". The racial gods then communed with the dragons, revealing what had been done: only under certain conditions (precisely what escapes me; any ideas) could dragon females produce true dragon eggs, and only in small clutches. At all other times, the eggs they laid would hatch only dragonborn.

One idea that comes to me from this is that, in equally (if not more so) rare & special occasions, dragonborn females can lay eggs that will produce a dragon hatchling. I'm unsure whether this came as a 'gift of mercy' from the racial patrons, or if Bahamut and Tiamat gave this in an effort to mitigate as much as they could the efforts of the other gods. Also coming to me are the idea of two rituals, which may or may not exist: the first allows a dying dragon to send out its spirit to "possess" the womb of a female dragonborn- the next egg she lays will be a dragon egg, containing the soul of the possessing dragon. This may only work on a blood relative. The other, which definately only works on a blood relative, also allows a dying dragon to send its spirit into a dragonborn, but in this case the dragon essentially consumes the victim, destroying their soul and warping their body into a resurrection of the dragon.

I'm also thinking that this change in fluff might alter the dragonborn society into being matrilinear and with a tendency towards ancestor worship (most "clans" are essentially blood relatives descended from a single given female dragon), but I'm not sure.

Well, that's all I can think of off the top of my head- any comments?

 

[Risen of the Pit]

What happened to this topic? Weren't there more replies here? Did the forum suffer a crash or something?

 

[lastbesthope]

What happened to this topic? Weren't there more replies here? Did the forum suffer a crash or something?

YEs, the forum did suffer a crash and reboot from slightly out of date backups.

LBH

 

[Risen of the Pit]

I see. Thanks for explaining. Well, I guess I'll need to try and "recreate" the basics that got worked out then...

In basic detail format:
*In the beginning, there were two "worlds": the Astral Sea, World of Spirit, and the Elemental Chaos, World of Matter. Gods formed within the Astral Sea and came down to explore the Chaos, eventually shaping the First Work, Hell, from raw matter and populating it with proto-lifeforms likewise made from raw matter, the Spawn.

*Disappointed, they decided to try again, this time incorporating spirit into their creations. Their earliest works created the various elementals, including the Titans, before they finally decided to try working with frail, vulnerable flesh. Once this proved successful, they created a new world for their creations to inhabit, referred to in some of the oldest tomes as "The Mundus". As a side-effect, they also created the Feywild and the Shadowfell.

*After they finished creating the Mundus and populating it with life, discourse began to rage amongst the gods, creating what is now known as "The War in the Heavens", though this wasn't one unified war but a series of constantly shifting battles and disputes. It is generally believed that it was during this time that the various monsters that trouble the world were created; weapons fashioned by vengeful or malignant gods to destroy the works of rivals.

*During this war, the god Io, individualistic (and hermaphroditic) patron god of dragons, divided itself into two gods; feminine Bahamut and masculine Tiamat, in order to preserve its Dominion from attack. The two "siblings" fell into fighting with each other and Io's Dominion was lost, whereupon they separated and took up seperate Dominions. Those dragons who sided with Bahamut became Metallics, while Tiamat's followers became Chromatic.

*Towards the end of the War, the Exarch of an unknown god tempted some of its fellows into rebellion, though it failed to topple its master from its throne. Furious, the wounded god cast down the renegade angels onto the surface of Hell, where they began to crossbreed with the Spawn in aims of breeding an army of monstrous warrior-slaves to take back "their" kingdom in the Astral Sea. This was an experiment doomed to failure; not only was their hated master destroyed while they prepared, but their creations rose up in rebellion and devoured the majority of the fallen angels, with only a few escaping to an alien and dying universe. Their creations populated Hell, becoming known to mortals as "Demons".

*Becoming aware of this act of cannibalistic carnage, the gods -Good, Unaligned and Evil alike- gathered together for the first time since the War in the Heavens had begun, an act that would only be repeated with the creation of the Dragonborn. They wove a powerful spell, the Great Binding, intending to chain the demons in their dark and hostile land. It had some potency, but was far from perfect- cracks and rents in the "wall" of the spell become portals to the mortal world, while souls fell through rents in the Shadowfell to provide nourishment for demons. And, worst of all, a spellcaster from outside could easily open gateways and allow demons to enter the other worlds. Still, it would have to do.

*The Dragonborn were created when the various racial patron gods noticed that the children of Io were a grave threat to the continued existence of their own children. Weaving a powerful curse, they blighted the dragons so that only eggs conceived under various special circumstances would hatch into dragons- the others would become far lesser creatures that became known, simply, as Dragonborn.

*With this "base cosmology", Dragonborn clans are thus matriarchial and prone to ancestor worship- specifically, deification of the female dragon from whom they can trace their lineage/descent.

*Tieflings are tied to Hell, but are not actually demon-blooded. Exposure to infernal energies, be it from using demon-created spells, wielding a possessed weapon or having physical contact with a demon, creates a kind of "taint" that is passed on to children. At unknowable intervals/for unknowable reasons, this taint can "overwhelm" an unborn child and cause it to be born as a Tiefling. Thusly, Bael Turath was an empire that trafficked heavily in demonic alliance, and this mass exposure to infernal energy means that any human or human-blooded being that can trace its ancestry to a member of the empire carries the "taint" and can thus create Tiefling children.