Slavery in Glorantha

[ninthcouncil]

I know from my memories of Cults of Prax et al, that slavery is common enough in the 3rd Age, and ISTR even the Orlanthi, freedom-loving as they claim to be, have "bondsmen". I'm assuming that there is something of the sort in the 2nd Age West as well, but can anyone supply some guidance on the forms this takes?

For instance, is the child of a slave also a slave, or is slavery a punishment institution confined to war captives and criminals? This is somewhat important to a scenario idea I have.

 

[simonh]

I don't think the attitude to slavery in the west has been detailed anywhere, but I may well be wrong. For my own purposes, I assume that it is tolerated and the broad statements I have heard about slavery in Genertella (that it's endemic in comparison to Pamaltela, where it's only really found in Fonrit) seem to support this. As is the case with so many things, I imagine that the many different sects and heresies of Malkionism in either the 2nd or 3rd age have widely varying attitudes.

It seems to me that since the west is a caste based society, foreigners fall outside the caste system and therefore can't have the status of true citizens. Any status they are accorded for diplomatic or practical purposes would be only nominal. In the second age the Lunars justify slavery on the basis that it allows a lunar to take custody of those who have not seen the light of the Goddess, and by keeping them within Lunar society hopefully bring them around to the Lunar Way. I imagine that many in the West might see it the same way.

My recommendation, in the absence of clear direction on this, would be to choose the option that best serves your game, and if it prov es to be non-canonical well, that's the way it goes. IMHO the needs of your game should come first.

I have a sample NPC on my site, Lorem the Man Merchant. He's an apostate Malkioni slave trader, who got into the business dealing in slaves after the Ducal Wars. His original merchandise were mostly foreign mercenaries and supporters on the losing side, but now he's developing alternative sources, and markets.

 

[ninthcouncil]

Thanks, Simon. My instinct was that inherited slavery would exist in the West, but not at the Graeco-Roman level; the well-defined caste structure of Malkioni society actually makes it less necessary, since there is an existing mechanism for tying people to their social positions without imposing ownership upon them explicitly. I just wanted to be sure that this didn't conflict with any canon of which I was unaware.

The connection with the aftermath of the Ducal Wars which you make with Lorem is a good one, particularly as I'm mainly concerned with Ralios. I'd expect most of the slave population to come from, or be descended from, those whose social position has collapsed - military captives from a war where the losing side is effectively destroyed (the defeat of the Stygian Empire, the Ducal Wars); the hopelessly indebted, such as failed cultivators and artisans; criminals.

And I might just borrow Lorem, as he'll fit in very nicely with what I have in mind.

 

[simonh]

I'd be very interested how you use the character, and I'd appreciate it if you let me know.

I'm certain the Malkioni would not impose slavery on other Malkioni, even criminals and rebels as it would violate their caste status, but that might not apply to heretics as their caste status may not be recognized. That's a dodgy one though, and I'd think it would be extremely controversial. Mostly I see it as being imposed on foreigners.

The Middle Sea Empire is a trading empire after all, and slave trading can be very lucrative. They may even have an equivalent of the British attitude during the West Indies trade - ok to do it abroad as after all you're buying people who are already slaves and not technically enslaving them yourself ("We're just following local African customs" - yeah right!), but no slavery on home territory.

Perhaps there's a distinction between Jrustelli and Seshnegi attitudes, with the Seshnegi tolerating slavery for ancient historical reasons but the more 'modern' and 'advanced' Jrustelli adopting the British Imperial attitude.

 

[ninthcouncil]

I'd be very interested how you use the character, and I'd appreciate it if you let me know.

Since an important incident takes place at a slave auction, I'd thought he might make an interesting person to have around - a basically decent man doing what the players (though not perhaps their characters) will tend to regard as a morally dubious job. An incidental rather than central character.

I'm certain the Malkioni would not impose slavery on other Malkioni, even criminals and rebels as it would violate their caste status, but that might not apply to heretics as their caste status may not be recognized. That's a dodgy one though, and I'd think it would be extremely controversial. Mostly I see it as being imposed on foreigners.

That's a good point - I was thinking mostly in societal rather than religious terms. It's not a killer to what I had in mind, though.

As a tangent, rather than open a separate thread, how flexible is the Malkioni position on the status of women? Unlike Orlanthi culture, which has some distinct paths for women to take who don't wish to go down the wife and mother route (even if one of them means wearing a wooden beard! :lol, there seems to be rather less "wriggle-room" for the non-conformist lass.

Would I be right to anticipate problems for a woman who wanted to learn how to fight, for instance? And what about wizard apprenticeship (though there's an illo in CoG2 showing a female apprentice being inducted)?

 

[simonh]

As a tangent, rather than open a separate thread, how flexible is the Malkioni position on the status of women?

Generally more tolerant than in the European dark Ages, but less tolerant than most other Gloranthan cultures. Certainly the Rokari in the 3rd Age are about the most restrictive culture I can think of, in terms of women's freedoms, but then the Loskalmi are very liberal (heretics!).

For the most part I believe that women are assumed to have the same caste as their father until they marry, at which point they adopt the caste of their husband. However this will vary from sect to sect. Some sects are likely to state that women stay in their original caste. In practice, inter-caste marriages are likely to be very rare due to societal pressures.

I'd assume a wide variety of attitudes, mainly because it's more fun - more opportunities for tragic love affairs, heroic struggles against prejudice and happily-ever-after fairy tales, and all that good stuff. There's no particular reason why a woman couldn't become a knight, or even a Wizard in some sect or other and most Malkioni would nominally accept that even if their own sect disagreed, so long as no overt heresy is involved. All IMHO.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

There's no particular reason why a woman couldn't become a knight, or even a Wizard in some sect or other and most Malkioni would nominally accept that even if their own sect disagreed, so long as no overt heresy is involved. All IMHO.

It's explicit in CoG2 that Adepts of Saint Xemelia are women, and she is acceptable to all Malkioni sects (Probably not the Rokari when they come on the scene, but they discount a great many saints...)

 

[ninthcouncil]

There's no particular reason why a woman couldn't become a knight, or even a Wizard in some sect or other and most Malkioni would nominally accept that even if their own sect disagreed, so long as no overt heresy is involved. All IMHO.

It's explicit in CoG2 that Adepts of Saint Xemelia are women, and she is acceptable to all Malkioni sects (Probably not the Rokari when they come on the scene, but they discount a great many saints...)

Yes, I've done no more than glance through CoG2 yet, but I feel like I should have noticed that even so :wink:

I have a particular player who may well, on past form, want to play magic orientated character and seeing as she doesn't like playing cross-gender...

Cheers, all. Now I must stop using the forum as a displacement activity for the essay I'm meant to be writing!

 

[Voriof]

There's no particular reason why a woman couldn't become a knight, or even a Wizard in some sect or other and most Malkioni would nominally accept that even if their own sect disagreed, so long as no overt heresy is involved. All IMHO.

Speaking of slavery, there's no reason she couldn't play an orderly of Gark the Calm either.

Jeff

 

[soltakss]

I'd say it depends on the particular region, but generally Slaves don't belong to a caste, so they live outside normal Malkionism. If a slave is freed, then he gets to join a Caste and can progress as normal. Slaves born to other slaves belong to the Slave non-caste and so are slaves themselves.

Of course, some Malkioni sects don't have caste mobility, so perhaps a slave is a slave is a slave and can't be freed and can't join a caste in those sects.

I suppose some Malkioni sects could accept slaves as cast members without them being freed, but they would be the equivalent of bondsmen or bonded servants.

 

[TRose]

As far as Malkoni losing status if they become slaves I must disagree. In the ancient world slaves could be found doing any job and at every station in life. Look as Joseph in the Bible he ended up as advsor to the Pharaoh. Or the Mamelukes that ruled Eqypt, or the eunochs that surrounded the Chinese Emperors, all slaves but all also people that had lots of power
And in ancient Rome and other places slaves worked as Doctors, teachers and scribes at times.
Slavery was often a very complex institiution, with sometimes many different types and classes of slaves..for example amnong many people a person might become a slave because of debt, war or crimminal activity and how you can treat them and what rights they have may vary.
Last time I had to deal with slavery was with the Oasis people of Prax. There I ruled that the amount of tribute they paid was fixed and that the Headman and certian tradesmen where consider part of the Khan House hold.They where still slaves, but they where the Khans slave, and you could beat them yes, just as you could kick the Khan's dogs,.It was just not something I would advise you to do unless you liked powerful enemies.

 

[simonh]

Of course, some Malkioni sects don't have caste mobility, so perhaps a slave is a slave is a slave and can't be freed and can't join a caste in those sects.

I think most Malkioni sects do try to convert heathens, so presumably would try to convert heathen slaves. I'm not sure what would happen then - either they'd be accepted into a caste and freed, or if casted slaves are possible would stay as slaves.

I suppose some Malkioni sects could accept slaves as cast members without them being freed, but they would be the equivalent of bondsmen or bonded servants.

I'd not realy considered that option, but it may be possible. I don't know enough about the details of caste roles, duties, rights and privileges to know if they would be compatible with slave status. My assumption is that the Kingdom of Logic wouldn't have had slaves, so IMHO it's doubtful whether slavery would be compatible with the 'classical' caste roles which do include privileges as well as duties.

Having said all that, of course the Ottoman Turks were Muslims and Islam prohibits forceable conversion, but that didn't stop them creating the Janissaries. Theory and practice often diverge.

 

[ninthcouncil]

Of course, some Malkioni sects don't have caste mobility, so perhaps a slave is a slave is a slave and can't be freed and can't join a caste in those sects.

I think most Malkioni sects do try to convert heathens, so presumably would try to convert heathen slaves. I'm not sure what would happen then - either they'd be accepted into a caste and freed, or if casted slaves are possible would stay as slaves.

That's a point that was nagging at me, as well. It would seem that there is a strong economic disincentive to proselytise slaves; could lead to soem interestign situations

I suppose some Malkioni sects could accept slaves as cast members without them being freed, but they would be the equivalent of bondsmen or bonded servants.

I'd not realy considered that option, but it may be possible. I don't know enough about the details of caste roles, duties, rights and privileges to know if they would be compatible with slave status. My assumption is that the Kingdom of Logic wouldn't have had slaves, so IMHO it's doubtful whether slavery would be compatible with the 'classical' caste roles which do include privileges as well as duties.

One of the problems with slavery in a feudal society is the fact that it alienates a pool of labour away from the ruler and into the hands of his subordinates. Serfs may appear to our perspective to be little more than slaves, but they are tied to the land rather than to the person of their lord, and at least in theory their position is part of an exchange of obligations - work in return for protection. Slaves on the other hand are personal property, and as such pose a potential threat to central power if their numbers become significant. Such a problem might be seen to arise in mediaeval Korea.

It interests me in this context that the relevant historical situation with which I am most familar - Tokugawa Japan - has a four-caste system, is arguably quasi-feudal (but ... don't ask. It's a bit contentious), and doesn't have an institution of slavery. There had been one, but it was abolished shortly before the Tokugawa supremacy; in other words, just as the Japanese leadership was beginning to address the problems of re-establishing central control after a lengthy civil war.

The problem of alienation of labour and other resources also applies to powerful religious institutions. Perhaps this is why the thrusting young authoritarian is often found kicking the crap out of monasteries (e.g. Henry VIII, Oda Nobunaga, early Choson Korea, the French Revolution).

 

[simonh]

That's a point that was nagging at me, as well. It would seem that there is a strong economic disincentive to proselytise slaves; could lead to soem interestign situations

On the other hand pagans don't go to solace when they die, but if they re-incarnate perhaps they'll re-incarnate as Malkioni. By keping a slave close to malkioni society and educating them in Malkioni culture and social ways perhaps this increases the chance of this happening? If so, then keeping pagans as slaves is pretty much a religious duty!

One of the problems with slavery in a feudal society is the fact that it alienates a pool of labour away from the ruler and into the hands of his subordinates.

I'd not considered that at all. Maybe I had the Jrusteli/Seshnegi attitudes reversed. The fossilized Seshnegi feudal system might be anathema to slavery while the young, mercantilist and otherwise egalitarian, and almost capitalist Jrusteli (boy those guys realy remind me of an island trading nation just of the coast of Europe) might have adopted the practice from the nearby Fonritans with whom they've had a lot of contact.

 

[TRose]

One thing also to remember is slavery tended to be uncommon in areas of high population densities like Egypt and ancient China. although slavery was known in both areas, there was a large supply of cheap peasant labor that would compete with slave labor. same with Mediaval Europe . Why buy a bunch of slaves when Serfs are free.

 

[Rurik]

And I might just borrow Lorem, as he'll fit in very nicely with what I have in mind.

You guys talk about him as though he were just a bit of property to be lent out and traded.

 

[Exubae]

On the other hand pagans don't go to solace when they die, but if they re-incarnate perhaps they'll re-incarnate as Malkioni. By keping a slave close to malkioni society and educating them in Malkioni culture and social ways perhaps this increases the chance of this happening? If so, then keeping pagans as slaves is pretty much a religious duty!

Nah... Pagans are damned to oblivion...
Unless they can be converted, and the sect must be willing to embrace converts... once converted they have to slotted in a caste, mostly Serfs (where the caste system allows such).
Slavery feels like it is out side of the overty religous Malkioni, wouldn't deeling with pagans soil your soul... (Depending on sect)...
What would the Malkioni society use slaves for like previously mentioned they have serfs, having slaves is removing part of the allocated task of the serf caste, and interferring with the divine plan.

Just a few casual thoughts and mad ramblings to throw in to the pot.

 

[gamesmeister]

...while the young, mercantilist and otherwise egalitarian, and almost capitalist Jrusteli (boy those guys realy remind me of an island trading nation just of the coast of Europe)...

Well we're always the bad guys in the movies, why should Glorantha be any different?

 

[TRose]

I think converts to Malkioni caste would depend on their status befor they converted. .I think I remember reading about some areas of Maniria where the Nobles had converted to Malkoni, while the peasants outside stayed loyal to Orlanth.And if some powerful Noble went up to some Malkoni Pries tand said I am thinking of converting, do you think they would tell him 'OK, but you are going to have to become a peasant?'

 

[soltakss]

...while the young, mercantilist and otherwise egalitarian, and almost capitalist Jrusteli (boy those guys realy remind me of an island trading nation just of the coast of Europe)...

What, Ireland?