Skipper by Rank by Tonnage

What should be the minimum actual rank designation for the captains of smaller warships?

Going by WW2 standards, would this seem to make sense?

Gunships, Patrol Craft, Close Escorts, <1000dTons, O3 Lieutenant.
Destroyer Escorts or Frigates, 1000 - 2000dTons, O4 Lieutenant Commander
Destroyers, 2000 - 5000dTons, O5 Commander
Light Cruisers, 5000dTons or more, O6 Captain

By that measure, battleships and dreadnoughts of over 100,000dTons would be commanded by O7, Commodore.

Does this sound about right? :)
 
In my setting even comparatively big non-starships like SDBs usually are
commanded by an Ensign or Sublieutenant, otherwise I use the system
you posted.
 
Instead of ship classification or tonnage I would go by number of crew.

Code:
<20		Ensign
20-50		2nd Lt
50-100		1st Lt
100-400		Lt Commander
400-1500	Commander
1500+		Captain

Commodores might command crews over 5000 but typically they command squadrons of similar ships (like all destroyers or all cruisers) within a fleet.

YMMV
 
Klaus Kipling said:
By that measure, battleships and dreadnoughts of over 100,000dTons would be commanded by O7, Commodore.
IMTU, they'd be commanded by a (Senior) Captain but have a Commodore or Admiral there as a command presence, commanding the fleet. Ships of that size would have a command bridge as well as the main bridge.
 
If you look at the probabilities in HG for 'Commanders' and 'Legendary Commanders' it is doubtful that a captain would remain at that rank for longer than a term. Who captains all the ships?

IMTU, I think I'll have O7 Commodore as rather a senior captain in charge of the largest vessels, or as a flotilla commander for cruisers.

Maybe could have some kind of alternate rule where commanders, instead of bucking for promotion, instead buck for command, and so the successful advancement roll allows the character command of increasingly large and powerful ships.

So when first becoming O6 the character gets a light cruiser or escort carrier (CL or CVE), then next up is the 'strike' versions, then the CA or CV, before moving on to even larger craft.

They still get the skill roll for advancement, but do not advance from O6 to O7 and gain any rank based skills, or extra benefits by rank level.

Otherwise Picard's career is pretty much totally unlikely if using HG as it stands (at least 30 years as a captain).
 
Using Star Trek as an example of rank advancement is not going to work anyway. There were ensigns on the show for 8 years. NOT going to happen in a military setting.

The rank structure that you choose to use is also going to depend on how big you let your ships get.

Start at the top and work your way down, not the other way around.

So your largest ships (battleships and cruisers) are going to be commanded by O6.

Smaller ships by lower rank.

IMTU, 10,000 tons is the largest ship so my rank structure looks like this:

5,000 - 10,000: O6
2,400 - 5,000: O5
1,000 - 2,400: O4 (the TMB/HG break)
300 - 1,000: O3
100 - 300: O2
50 - 100: O1
<50: E6+ (Yes, enlisted men can pilot a fighter IMTU).
 
Well going by naval tradition a captain is CO for cruisers and above, and commanders for frigates and destroyers.

But, given that the definition as to what is a frigate and what is a destroyer and what is a cruiser is rather fuzzy at times it could get confusing.

An HG distinction could be that 'capital' ships require a captain (O6), and lesser ones a commander and below.

One thing that traveller has never been too revealing on is the naval ship classes between escorts and cruisers. In the old CT Fighting Ships there is only one destroyer class (and the Sloan fleet escort at 5000dTons). I can't remember seeing that many more vessels in the 3000 to 10000 dTon range, where, if we use RL maritime navy displacement tons, destroyers morph into light cruisers.

If we want to look at RL comparisons, only the USN is of a sufficient size currently to compare with the IN. WW2 era navies are probably a better fit. Currently, there's probably more admirals in the RN than captains in charge of a ship...
 
Typically in the USN a Captain (O6) would command anything of Cruiser size and up. Submarines are usually commanded by a Commander. Destroyers and frigates would be a Commander or Lt. Commander.

In WWII you even had ensigns commanding PT boats. And you even had enlisted men (marines and navy) flying planes.

The O7 and above commanded either squadrons or fleets. Where as a carrier or battleship would be commanded by a Captain if it was the flag ship an Admiral would also be in attendance (the USN designated a Rear Admiral-lower half as an O7).
 
cbrunish said:
Typically in the USN a Captain (O6) would command anything of Cruiser size and up.

Two of the three COs of the Cruiser I was on were Commanders; only the final one was a Captain.
 
Actually, for the navy heads out there, is it possible to get into lower ranks for key positions as well?

I.E., let's say we've a "destroyer" commanded by a Commander (05). His first officer is an 04 or 03? The weapons officer, navigator, chief engineer, etc, what are their ranks? How do the enlisted guys size up?

Just as a point of information. I was an Air Force cadet for 2 years (then stayed 2 more years in the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets) so I've been privy to lots of these discussions for the Air Force and Army. We had Navy guys but never had THIS conversation. So?
 
I was just trying to remember from a naval history class in college (17 years ago). Im actually a retired staff sergeant from the PA Army National Guard so if you ask for a breakdown in ranks for anything from a fire team up to an army I could do that. :)
 
cbrunish said:
Where as a carrier or battleship would be commanded by a Captain if it was the flag ship an Admiral would also be in attendance (the USN designated a Rear Admiral-lower half as an O7).

Right this happened in Mote in the God's Eye where the Admiral commanded the other ship because it was a flagship and important mission. This happened on Star Trek TNG a few times IIRC. I can see it happening in the Spinward Marches for Dreadnaughts during the FFW.

Mike
 
Howdy all,

In the USN who skippers what structure is variable depending the circumstances of the time.

Starting with small craft like ship's boats, tugs, or barges can be skippered by E2s. In Pearl Harbor the small boats running between the main base and Ford Island were crewd by E2s and E3s with the senior pay grade being the defacto "skipper". If the small boat were assigned to tansport junior officers then junior NCOs skipper the craft. Senior officers usually have either a senior NCO or a junior officer as skipper of the Captain's/Admiral's gig. Tugs and other harbor craft can be skippered by senior NCOs and junior to middle level officers.

Support or auxiliary vessels like oilers, muntions, or supply ships, can be skippered by officer grades O1 to O6.

Submarines skippers are O4 to O6, rarely, and O5 being the most common.

Light combatants, like DD or DDE classes, are skippered by O3 to O5s.

Medium combatants, Cruisers, can range from O3, rarely, to O6 with an O5 being most common.

Large combatants, BB and Attack/Fleet Carriers, O6 with an occassional O5 waiting to be promoted.

Then we start with who is in charge of squadrons, task forces, and the other larger groupings.

Have I sufficiently added to the confusion? ;-)
 
US military also makes a distinction between shallow draft ships and deep draft ships.

Submarines are normally shallow draft ships, so are most commonly commanded by O5. BUT, the Ohio class Ballistic Missile Submarines (The Tridents) are deep draft vessels and thus are commanded by O6s.

In the Navy, to be considered for Admiral (O7+), you have to have commanded a Deep Draft Vessel.

Just adding more confusion to the discussion.
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
US military also makes a distinction between shallow draft ships and deep draft ships.

Ah - good to know - thought it was the nukes that made the difference... (but I'm just a civvy landlubber - whatta I know?).

So in Traveller maybe it would be the size of your jump that makes a distinction?
 
A few more points to add:

My time in the USN was all shore duty (don't ask if you'll get jealous), so I don't have much direct experience with who commanded what but I made several observations about this in relation to my Traveller campaigns.

First off, the USN's job functions are (or were) organized by billets. Each billet is for a specific job, and has a specific set of requirements for filling it. These billets are organized more on an ideal structure, rather than what's available.

The various ranks people have and can promote to are theoretically driven by the needs of the billets - if the Navy needs 200 06s, then it will try and set it's promotion requirements so that they have as close to 200 06's as possible. However, due to all sorts of things - too many people passing their tests, more retirements/losses than expected, etc, the odds of having exactly the number of a given rank that is needed is extremely unlikely.

So when a billet becomes open, the Navy will look first to put someone there who meets the requirements of the billet, and if they can't, will first look "above", then "below" to fill the requirements. That means if a CO position on a Frigate opens up, and the billeting says it should be an 05 with X experience, that's what they'll try and put there. Unless they have an excess number of 06s, in which case an 06 will get the job. However, if they don't have any 06s or 05s to fill the job, an 04 could wind up getting it.

Next - the Navy really likes a top down structure. They like it when the guy in charge outranks the people below him. That means that ideally, if you have an 05 as the CO, then the exectuive officer is going to be an 04, and your other officers will be 03 or lower - the pyramid thing works all the way down.

So the best way to figure out what the "ideal" rank to command a given ship is is to know how the crew on that ship is structured. Departments will be divded into divisions, and typically, every division will have an officer in charge. So if your gunnery department has a division for each weapon type and they have three weapon types, then the minimum CO rank of your ship will be 04 - each weapon division will have a minimum 01, the Gunnery Department will have a minimum 02, which (assuming other departments are similarly arranged) means that the EO will be an 03, and the CO will be an 04.

On small ships with small crews, a Navy may dip into the the enlisted ranks for some of those positions. FREX, the tugboat department I was stationed at had E7s as boat commanders, E6s as first mates, E5s as chief engineer's and chief Boatswain's mates, while the department in charge of all the boats was headed by an 03 and an 01.

To further complicate things, remember there is a difference between Command (or Line) and Staff officers. Only command or line officers can actually hold command of a vessel (or shore station). Staff officers are typically trained in a specialty - the most common one is Medical - and while they can command a department related to their specialty, they'll never command a ship. So you can sometimes have a situation where the CO of a large ship is an 06 or 07, but their medical department is run by someone of the same rank (or rarely, a higher rank).

Then you can make things more fun by comparing Navies. Based on my experience with the USN, USAF, and RAN, it appears that most navies have the same basic structures, it's the details that are different. I'll speak about the differences with the Air Force and USN, since they are the ones I'm most familiar with, but the same principal applies between navies. My cousin and I joined the USN and the USAF within 6 months of each other, and both of us had fairly successful careers within our respective services. However, the USN has a much higher turnover rate in personnel than the USAF does - which led me to making E6 in just over 6 years, while it took him something like 14 years to accomplish the same thing. The USAF has a much, much slower rate of progression. Similarly, the RAN had a slower turnover rate than the USN - when I was stationed at the joint USN/RAN base in Australia, several of my RAN counterparts had far more years in service than I did, yet we were equivilently ranked.

Now, to relate all that back to Traveller, it's easiest to define what a ship's CO needs to be by the number of officers it has and what departments it has. This was pretty easy under the CT/HG rules - HG basically told you how many officers the ship needed and where - you just had to build your pyramids. MgT HG is similar in scope - the only thing I'd add is that generally there are no more than 30-60 enlisted personnel for every officer.

So while ship size _might_ be a good guide, you can probably come up with some better guidelines that are based on crew size and navy type. Navy type is important, for the various reasons I outline above. The Imperial navy, by its size and very nature, is likely to have higher turnover rates and need more personnel than a smaller, stable planetary navy. Even two planetary Navies may have differences - a rich world with hundreds of SDBs, Cruisers, etc may have it's smaller ships commanded by 04s, while a poor world with only 4-5 SDBs will likely have them commanded by 06s and 07s.

Hope all that rambling helps.
 
Yeah, the navy size is important. No matter how large, there'll always be an admiral in charge.

The RN now has more admirals than ships... :shock:

The Imperial Navy is likely to have large discrepancies over wide areas regarding the number of given ranks desired and the actual ranks in the field. And due to it's very size (and the size of the ships) getting an actual command would be rare.

But possibly the IN would tend to the lower end of the possible ranks in command of a given ship, and it could vary massively from area to area. They wouldn't just be able to fly a skipper from one world to another in a reasonable time, so the command structure would depend on whoever was at hand at the time.

At Mora, with it's huge population and shipyards and naval bases, the IN could probably fill its billets with the proper ranks almost always, but over in the Five Sisters, the rank distribution could be all over the place, so there would often be more lower ranks in actual command. At least that seems to make some kind of sense. :)
 
Hello BP,

Nice idea unfortunately, any ship with the right displacement tonnage can mount a J-6 drive. Looking throught CT Supplement 9 Fighting Ships most of the ships are equipped with J-4 drives. The Tigress Class Dreadnaught, CT Supplement 9 p. 38, has a maximum jump range of 4. An Azhanti High Lightning (AHL) class cruiser,CT Supplement 9 p. 31, has a J-5 drive.

Would the J-5 cruiser have the higher ranking officer over the J-4 dreadnought?

Sorry to burst a nice idea, of course you could always blame it on being Monday ;-)

BP said:
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
US military also makes a distinction between shallow draft ships and deep draft ships.

Ah - good to know - thought it was the nukes that made the difference... (but I'm just a civvy landlubber - whatta I know?).

So in Traveller maybe it would be the size of your jump that makes a distinction?
 
Klaus Kipling said:
They wouldn't just be able to fly a skipper from one world to another in a reasonable time, so the command structure would depend on whoever was at hand at the time.
Not necessarily. Most billets have a time period built into them, and the Navy usually "knows" when a particular person is leaving, and when their spot will be open. When I transferred from Australia back to the States, I knew where I was going nearly 4 months in advance. Given the time lag in the Imperium, it's quite possible that someone may know where their next duty station is six months to a year in advance.

That said, the Navy would try to minimize travel time. Personnel movements would be timed to coincide with unit movements and annual maintenance schedules. Those Naval Depots will be filled with entire departments filled with personnel who's entire duty is to schedule and coordinate transfers of personnel
 
Would it actually be possible to plan that far in advance? Certainly at the subsector level, and even the sector level, but across the Imperium? There can't really be that much central decision making beyond policy and doctrine. Actual operations are going to be sector level at most.

Add the fact that any officer is essentially out of action for weeks as they cross from Glisten to Regina. Appointments are surely going to be a lot more ad hoc than they are in RL.
 
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