Skills in RPGs

Vormaerin

Emperor Mongoose
Another thread derailed into a discussion of skills in general, so I thought I'd move it out to it's own thread :D

Traveller is a game where characters do not generally have a lot of skills and those skills are quite broad. The result is that characters are simultaneously less skilled than people in RL and extremely overly broad in the things that they are skilled in. Which I think is fine for a game. Just something to be aware of when GMing and deciding how strict you should be in setting skill tasks and whatnot.

IMHO, when you design a skill based game you need to basically do three things with your skill list:

Core Skills: Determine what the core thing your gameplay is going to involve and make a wide range of skills for those things. In most games, it's talking to NPCs, investigating, and fighting. So you should have enough different skills that everyone gets to participate and feel like they are making a unique contribution. And maybe the party doesn't have some of them. Which is also fine.

Hat Skills: These are the things that come up regularly enough that a player might hang their character's hat on them. 'I'm the guy who does X". But they don't come up all the time such that you need to get all the players involved when they do. This is usually stuff like Pilot, Engineer, Medic, Wheelman, etc. These should be pretty compact so one guy can reasonably shine when that's the thing that comes up. So, in Traveller, like 1 or 2 skills. If one character needs like 4 or 5 skills/specializations to "do their thing" on top of being able to be part of the core game play, they are going to be unhappy.

Flavor Skills: These are the things that are not likely to come up very often. But it's cool if the players can fit a few of these in without hosing themselves on the above two categories. So you can have that occasional moment where the rest of the players look at you and go: "Wait, you can speak Swahili?" Or "When did you learn to ride Kians?"

Obviously, what skill goes in what category is going to depend on the campaign specifics. If I am running "Space: Above & Beyond" as my campaign, I'll want a bunch of Pilot skills because everyone is a pilot and we'll want to differentiate them. But most campaigns, when there is a cool thing to roll pilot for, it's fine for everyone to look at Bob for that. Other characters might have gotten some Pilot, but they aren't THE PILOT.

Depending on your campaign, spaceship crew skills might be Core (everyone's a steward on a luxury liner, so who is the tailor vs who is the cook might matter) or they might be flavor (we are running an Earth 2 game about colonizing a new planet). But most often they'll be Hat skills. So the CRB should design them as such. And if you need to differentiate your Engineers, you can expand the skill in whatever way suits your campaign.
 
Like everyone there's a few things I would prefer were done differently in the CRB.

I think Gun Combat should be handguns/long guns/Bows not guns/lasers/bows. I don't think Engineer and Pilot need specialties in most cases. Or maybe even "Fly the ship" and "astrogate" be the specialties for pilot.

Electronics is kind of a mess. Most high-tech types should be able to use electronics, but I don't think everyone should be a hacker.

But it's pretty serviceable overall.
 
I agree on your gun combat suggestion. I think you have a point about the pilot element, although I think capital vs non-capital is fair.

I do strongly disagree about collapsing the engineering skill, though: in ludic terms, it gives more areas for different people to shine or for NPCs to be brought in to interact with. In in-game terms, it feels like saying that a jet engine engineer, an HVAC mechanic and a power station engineer are all basically just using spanners.
 
All those things you list are Mechanics in Traveller. :P Engineering is Life Support, Jump Drives, M-Drives, and Power Plants for starships. If you are running a game about the engineering crew of a giant ship, that might be useful. But how often do you need to differentiate two different engineering characters or find it useful to tell your player who wants to be Gordi LaForge that "oops, you put all your points in J-Drive, so really, your chances of fixing the life support are minimal."? Are Engineering rolls really going to come up often enough that this is useful?

The reality is that everyone is going to be specced in J-Drive because that's the one that happens a lot and it's a "save vs disaster" skill. The other specialties are irrelevant. When they do come up, you just hope your +0 roll is good enough.

Most Traveller skills are very broad like that and multiple people could make careers in just a narrow aspect of them.. IRL, the Medic skill is stupidly broad. You'd much rather have a paramedic doing first aid on you than a surgeon. And you don't want the nurse doing surgery, while most doctors are pretty crap at nursing. But unless you are playing Space Scrubs: The Interstellar Hospital, that level of differentiation is not important. And having your Doctor need a large number of different skills to do their occasional niche thing is a bad idea.

Edit: Just to be clear, if your campaign features enough technical stuff that multiple people being good at it or having your party need to use contacts to get things done still leaves your team's tech guy with enough to do to feel valid, then by all means have more specializations. Possibly add them to Mechanic also. I don't think that's true of most games, though.
 
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I have used this in the past.

Ship operations - a jack of all trades type skill that grants pilot, navigation, engineering, mechanic and electronic but only for ship board systems.
 
All those things you list are Mechanics in Traveller. :P Engineering is Life Support, Jump Drives, M-Drives, and Power Plants for starships.
That was the point. I didn't think I had to spell that out. But to be clear: that is one of several reasons why I strongly oppose the idea of collapsing them: those are fundamentally different sorts of engineering, which in ludic terms means that there are more chances for PCs to shine or NPCs to be around to interact with the party, driving both drama and story.

The power plant, m-drive and life support skills may be irrelevant in your campaign but they sure as hell are not in my ones!
 
Which raises the issue of how many skills and what a skill is worth.

Is engineering 1 really the equivalent of admin 1? In terms of learning and course content. Should some skills be cheaper and some more expensive?

Do you really want a character sheet that looks like a BRP or GURPS character sheet with all those lovely skills...

You also necessitate an increase in engineering crew by insistence on different branches of engineering.

A jump drive would require jump engineering 1 as a minimum, power plant engineering 1 for the power plant, environment, gravitics, maneuver drive... now add the mechanic sub specialisms, the electronic sub specialism to actually fix stuff and you either need to give engineers way more skill points or balance that lot with the pilot who just picked pilot four times.

Is there a need for diffent "schools" to be points balanced?
 
Honestly, I like lots of skills and lots of subdivisions of skills into clusters and cascades. BUT, the current rules don't really allow for it. To have the kinds of skill option I'd like, you need at least double and possibly triple the number of skill points earned from careers. The way it is now, more compact skills is probably better. And Profession skills need to alot more prominent in the game, like every 2 terms in a career grants 1 level of profession in that career which can act like jack of all trades for skills from that careers skill charts.
 
... And Profession skills need to alot more prominent in the game, like every 2 terms in a career grants 1 level of profession in that career which can act like jack of all trades for skills from that careers skill charts.
Yes, this is something I would find very useful in many situations. I have fiddled with the idea, but never found a solution that I'm satisfied with.
 
That was the point. I didn't think I had to spell that out. But to be clear: that is one of several reasons why I strongly oppose the idea of collapsing them: those are fundamentally different sorts of engineering, which in ludic terms means that there are more chances for PCs to shine or NPCs to be around to interact with the party, driving both drama and story.

The power plant, m-drive and life support skills may be irrelevant in your campaign but they sure as hell are not in my ones!
Sure, which I said. But that is true of every skill in Traveller. You could do that with Medic. You could do that with Admin. With Mechanics. IRL, Steward is multiple entire careers: tailor, chef, sommelier, etc. And so on.

The current way Engineering is done makes it different from all the other crew skills. Pilot, Medic, Gunner, Steward, Astrogator, etc are all "One skill covers the whole job" with no specializations. (Pilot technically has specializations, but Capital ships is extremely unlikely to matter and ship's boat may or may not). Your Engineer needs two skills to do the basic thing the role demands (fix tech): Engineer and Mechanics. And Engineer has 4 specialties. Two skills is fine for a Hat to need, but 5 is unreasonable in Traveller. This is a design flaw, imho.

The DM can expand any skill in the game based on the needs of that specific campaign or their playstyle.
 
Sure, which I said. But that is true of every skill in Traveller. You could do that with Medic. You could do that with Admin. With Mechanics. IRL, Steward is multiple entire careers: tailor, chef, sommelier, etc. And so on.

The current way Engineering is done makes it different from all the other crew skills. Pilot, Medic, Gunner, Steward, Astrogator, etc are all "One skill covers the whole job" with no specializations. (Pilot technically has specializations, but Capital ships is extremely unlikely to matter and ship's boat may or may not). Your Engineer needs two skills to do the basic thing the role demands (fix tech): Engineer and Mechanics. And Engineer has 4 specialties. Two skills is fine for a Hat to need, but 5 is unreasonable in Traveller. This is a design flaw, imho.

The DM can expand any skill in the game based on the needs of that specific campaign or their playstyle.
Ultimately, no "proof" is possible to settle or "win" this argument for either of us. It just comes down to preference: I kinda like the game as it is* and I like the increased need for more characters that specialised skills bring. You would prefer to try a new direction and feel that more general-purpose skills would suffice. Each is situational, neither is necessarily "right".

It's kinda like why I don't use skill wafers: if four people can do everything then the need for interaction with sidekicks, henchmen and employees is rarer. But if a group doesn't enjoy that interaction, or a referee dislikes that part of the game, then they are a boon.



*OK, except (as we discussed elsewhere) for the fact that bonuses can get too big in 2D6, and fewer skills (or more skill points) would, for me, seem likely to make this worse as people could amass higher skill levels more easily.
 
It’s always a balancing act with skill based RPGs. How many different skills will be available for narrowly are they focused balanced by how many your PCs can get. In CT originally you could get up to 3 skills per 4 year term (I’m petty sure I’m remembering right: 1 auto, 1 promotion and 1 commission or something like that) enter book 4 and advance character generation now you could get as many as 16 skills per term since every year of a term was separate and you had schools in which you could a ton of skills as long as you didn’t have a skill Rand of 2 in any of them. At the same time the number of different skills exploded but only for the longest time ground troops and navy it was a few years before we got advance Chargen scouts and merchants and even after that anyone who wanted to use citizens of the imperium got much fewer skills.

Mongoose has gone the other way condescending the skills down and making many of the old skills specialities of a root skill while decreasing the number of skills per term a PC can get. Is this better I really don’t know but I remember being forced to roll repeatedly on the character development table because I had hit my skill max by halfway through my 3 term and that character has above average edu and int.
 
Independence Games' variant Clement Sector has 8 specializations for Medic, breaks Steward up into several completely separate skills, adds a cargo handling skill, and plenty of other such things. It is certainly something you can do. I don't think Traveller gives characters enough skill points for that, but ymmv. (Clement Sector humans have longer lifespans, though)

I prefer some consistency in how broad skills are, so I don't like when some complex multifaceted roles are condensed into a single skill and others are not. I find Engineering to be broken up in a way that other role skills like Medic, Steward, Pilot, Gunner, etc are not. I think this is unnecessary and even unfair to the player who wants to be the "engineer" compared to those who want to do other ship roles. Every ship role on a free trader calls on a single skill (Pilot could be two if you have a ship and a shuttle). The engineer? Five.

On the other hand, think that Electronics is unusually broad even by Traveller standards.

The modifers is a different issue, but I'm particularly stingy on the "take extra time" option. I'm generally of the opinion that if you have that much time, it's probably not really an interesting question to ask the dice. I also don't use skill wafers or expert systems to the extent that some others do.

Running NPCs and non combat encounters is the most fun part of the game for me as a GM, so I am very down with having a lot of different social skills to help with giving every player a role in that sort of thing. But I prefer those NPCs to be contacts rather than on the crew. I want the players to be making the rolls the matter (even if that roll is a social skill to get an NPC contact to do a thing for them).

But you are absolutely right that this is not a topic with a "right" answer. And, as I said, I can imagine running a campaign where I want Medic or Pilot or Mechanics to be cascaded because multiple characters will be filling roles using the same skill and deserve differentiation.
 
If Traveller wants broad skills great. If Traveller wants narrow skills with lots of subskills also great - it becomes a different game but hey ho.

Currently it is a weird mix of the two.
The Starter Editions would be a good place to put the broad skills version and the CRB could retain the subskills version - then, people can chose which version they prefer, or mix'n'match as they like.
 
IF I was organizing weapons skills, I'd just have two. Melee and Guns. Melee would have Brawling, Melee Weapons, and Thrown. Guns would have Pistol-y thingies, Longarms, and Bows.

You certainly can have more specializations if you are doing a very combat centric game where you want to differentiate between your riflemen and your snipers (or whatever), but I think that for most games this gives folks enough options for distinctiveness without straining the chargen system.
 
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