Shrines and Temples -- a question

[dbhoward]

On page 117 of the rulebook, it says that a Divine Magic user can regain the use of a spell by returning to "a shrine or temple" to pray for the spell.

I'm running a non-Gloranthan wilderness campaign where there are likely to be frontier preachers and missionaries, cairns, and wild holy men, but not many grand temples in sight.

Unlike the first edition of the rules, there's no definition of what constitutes a shrine or temple. It's not stated in the description of the Consecrate spell that this spell per se creates these places; Consecrate is only said to give you a bonus to cast spells, not to gain or regain them.

So what makes something a shrine or a temple? Can any priest make a shrine? Or if Father Joliet fumbles his roll, does he have to go all the way back to France to get his spells back?

 

[Loz]

Its really up to you to decide. A temple is self explanatory: that small chapel, manned by a dusty old cleric; a great church or cathedral.

Shrines can be anything from a holy symbol stuck in a hillside to a small, neat shrine to a local saint erected at the roadside.

Shrines: small, personal, local.

Temples: large, formal, regional.

 

[dbhoward]

Remember, though, I am looking for the answer to this in game terms, so I can let my players know what they have to do in setting up new shrines/temples for their cult.

So I am correct, then, in assuming there is nothing--- in game terms--- that defines what a shrine is? A character can scratch a holy symbol on a rock, or just wave his hands and say, "it's a shrine!", or what have you, and the location works as a shrine forever after (that is, insofar as that would be ok in game-world/cultural setting terms). No action by a priest or god is required, as far as the rules on recovering spells are concerned.

If this is so, then why make the requirement at all? If a shrine is nothing more than a small center of worship, why make a rule for going to a shrine, if players can create makeshift "shrines" and recover their spells wherever they like?

 

[Loz]

Sorry; I clearly didn't read your post closely enough.

Both shrines and temples are made - consecrated - through the Consecrate spell. Note its description: 'The consecrated sphere is sacred to the spellcaster's god'.

A temple, then, is a site that is the subject of numerous and sustained Consecrate spells, kept in place by the presence of the permanent clergy.

Shrines are much smaller and local, their consecration kept in place by a sole Rune Priest responsible for that area. A shrine's consecration may lapse; it may not. It will depend on how looks after it and what else he or she has to do.

Creating a shrine or temple is thus a case of casting Consecrate on an appropriate area, object or building and then maintaining it. Once cast, its ties-up the dedicated POW used to cast it, putting it beyond other use (spells, usually) so a single person could maintain a shrine within a certain range if he has no other duties requiring dedicated POW or magic.

So the answer to your question: 'A character can scratch a holy symbol on a rock, or just wave his hands and say, "it's a shrine!", or what have you, and the location works as a shrine forever after' is Yes, sure he can. But he must cast and maintain Consecrate to keep it that way. If he doesn't, and the spell lapses, so does the ability to use the shrine to recover spells. Furthermore, a shrine must be recognisable to others of the same faith. Scratching a symbol on a rock might work in one culture but not another. Something recognisable and visible is going to a) declare that god's presence and b) help the divine follower find it and use it.

However, shrines, being local and personal often aren't enough. That's what temples are for, which typically contain numerous shrines to a pantheon's gods. Grouping them together under one roof makes consecration easier, attracts maximum attention, makes a political and religious statement, and so on.

Does that clarify things better?

 

[dbhoward]

Yes, absolutely this clears up my confusion. I thought perhaps Consecrate was the key to this, but the spell description wasn't clear to me. Thanks so much for your prompt response!

 

[Denalor]

One thing I always need to actively remind me of, is that it is actually the shrine/temple providing the divine spell and not the priest residing there. I.e. you can learn a divine spell (or recover one) regardless of the spells know by the priesthood there.
Of course, the common magic spells need to be taught by the priest. Those are not provided by the holy site.

It is clear that you need to have a minor temple to initially learn an acolyte level divine spell and a major temple to learn a rune lord/priest level divine spell.

However, I'm not sure whether this also applies to recovering these spells.
So, suppose an Acolyte of Chalana Arroy casts Heal Body and fails her recovery roll the next day (she fails her Pact (Chalana Arroy) roll).
So, does she need to go a a shrine or does she need to pray at a minor temple in order to pray there and roll for her Pact (Chalan Arroy) ro recover Heal Body ?

 

[Denalor]

Umm... well... is that question so ridiculous or what ?
I really do not know and it would be nice to read comments ;-)

 

[simonh]

IMHO in Glorantha there are many places that are just naturaly, automaticaly sacred to this or that deity or spirit. This could manifest as any Consecrate spell being automaticaly successful, multiplied in duration or intensity, or the place might just be naturaly permanently consecrated.

Simon Hibbs

 

[dbhoward]

It is clear that you need to have a minor temple to initially learn an acolyte level divine spell and a major temple to learn a rune lord/priest level divine spell.

However, I'm not sure whether this also applies to recovering these spells.

Wow, did nobody from Mongoose ever answer that???

I'll give it a shot, but since I asked this in the first place I'm not the expert here.

I've always played it that *any* shrine or temple of any level is sufficient for recovering the spell once it is learned (unless the rules state otherwise, like the recovery roll is fumbled, etc). It's the cult level of the person who knows the spell that is more important.

Think of it this way: a Rune Priest has to go to a major temple to learn a certain spell since only that place has the particular ritual items, scrolls, teachers and so forth to instruct him in the spell. Later, he uses the spell and is, so to speak, "out of harmony" with his god. There's a roadside shrine where a number of lay members and initiates are praying. The Rune Priest kneels down and performs the ritual (that he already has learned, remember) to recover the spell. Nothing about the shrine matters except that it's sacred to his god.

Make sense? Otherwise you have Rune-levels always having to stay close to major temples, and I've had this sense from the early days of RQ that at least the Rune Lords were supposed to be champion-sorts who were a bit more free to wander.

Anyway, that's my take & the way I play it.

 

[Denalor]

Well, remember, a Rune Lord does not need any type of shrine to regain his spells... or rather he has one chance to re-call it without needing to got to a shrine/temple.

So I think I will indeed demand the higher types of holy meeting places to regain the higher level divine spells.
A god might not "notice" someone praying at a minor shrine asking to be granted with a higher level spell, and how would he differentiate between an original learning of a spell or a re-gaining ? Would he bother ? I don't think so.

 

[Loz]

I've always played it that *any* shrine or temple of any level is sufficient for recovering the spell once it is learned (unless the rules state otherwise, like the recovery roll is fumbled, etc). It's the cult level of the person who knows the spell that is more important.

This is correct.

Wow, did nobody from Mongoose ever answer that???

I'm sorry the question got overlooked (it did). As you can see from these boards, we have many, many questions posed, plus our writing projects to work on too. Its not always possible to answer all questions as quickly as people might like.

 

[dbhoward]

Loz, absolutely no criticism was implied at all, and I hope you didn't take it that way. Actually, my "Wow" was more from my being used to the way you do get back to questions so promptly. We're spoiled, what can I say.

I know how busy you all are there, and I for one am impressed by the degree to which questions do get answered by the design team. I had a rules point arise in a game one week and got a reply from Pete in time for our next session!

 

[EricJ]

IMHO in Glorantha there are many places that are just naturaly, automaticaly sacred to this or that deity or spirit. This could manifest as any Consecrate spell being automaticaly successful, multiplied in duration or intensity, or the place might just be naturaly permanently consecrated.

Simon Hibbs

It's the same way on Earth too.

But, in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate—we cannot consecrate—we cannot hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract.

 

[Loz]

Loz, absolutely no criticism was implied at all, and I hope you didn't take it that way. Actually, my "Wow" was more from my being used to the way you do get back to questions so promptly. We're spoiled, what can I say.

I know how busy you all are there, and I for one am impressed by the degree to which questions do get answered by the design team. I had a rules point arise in a game one week and got a reply from Pete in time for our next session!

No offence taken (hence the smiley in my post)... its just trying to keep track of all the things I have to reply on, and keep track of all the work I have to do on various things.

 

[Denalor]

Hmm, well, the higher ranks of a cult already have the advantage that they might not need to go to a shrine at all.

Acolytes may re-gain a day after the spell was cast
Rune Priests and Rune Lords may re-gain an hour after the spell was cast

So if these fail in their initial recovery roll, their god just didn't notice them when they prayed for their spells (gods being so busy and all that). Now they have to do something to be noticed... and obviously it is sufficient to go to a shrine... oh, btw, is a holy site also sufficient ? You answer above impliues that actually