sorcery should be rightly feared, but gaining power in sorcery should be extremely tough to do. bide your time and then show off when you know agonising doom and can make a castle crumble with a single word. sorcery doesnt come cheap in conan and it certainly doesnt come over night.
Should Defensive Blast be altered in Conan 2nd?
- Thread starter Trodax
- Start date
the people posting comments on this forum often tend to be people familiar with the world prior to the game, or gaining familiarity with the world through the game and, through it, to the stories. We posters who have familiarity with the game who are saying to remove it (or replace it with a more system-friendly feat, spell or effect) have noticed that, while the game was carefully constructed so that races, skills, feats, monsters and setting are based upon the Hyborian World because of it's hero Conan, we have also noticed that this Defensive Blast is incongruous with the world.
It has no place in any of the stories, movies (yes I mentioned the two movies already made). Comics I can't claim, not being familiar enough with them, but from what little experience I've had (Dark Horse) the writers have tried to stay with the source material. (Obvious exceptions being Conan vs. X-Men or Conan vs. Thor, those throw-off type issues, or the ones where Conan becomes a homosexual due to soul-swapping). My point is, it was taken from a 3.0 dungeons and dragons sourcebook (written for Faerun, IRRC) and it's spell limitations removed. So as was written above, a 1st level sorcerer could do 8d damage, or as in the case of my 5th level sorcerer player's opportunistic use, 27d damage.
The closest you could come to flash-bang effects in the stories that influenced this game were those floating globes which incinerated those foolish enough to touch them in "People of the Black Circle." Magic in this world was more a matter of sorcery than deedle dee flashbang whizz effects.
One matter of semantics I'll make is that not all scholars are sorcerers, although I'd assume any player making one up does so with the intention of giving him access to spells. Sorcery in this game, as the rules have mentioned, is meant to be damning and deadly, draining the caster as well as giving him terrible power. Looking at the power curve, as is typical of the deedle dee game which inspired this game's OGL system, magic-users start off less powerful/more feeble than their fighting counterparts, but by 10th level are easily at a match, and more powerful afterwards if not craftily created before.
Despite all it's brokenness, my objections to this mechanic are not so much because it is broken, but because it does not fit the milieu.
It has no place in any of the stories, movies (yes I mentioned the two movies already made). Comics I can't claim, not being familiar enough with them, but from what little experience I've had (Dark Horse) the writers have tried to stay with the source material. (Obvious exceptions being Conan vs. X-Men or Conan vs. Thor, those throw-off type issues, or the ones where Conan becomes a homosexual due to soul-swapping). My point is, it was taken from a 3.0 dungeons and dragons sourcebook (written for Faerun, IRRC) and it's spell limitations removed. So as was written above, a 1st level sorcerer could do 8d damage, or as in the case of my 5th level sorcerer player's opportunistic use, 27d damage.
The closest you could come to flash-bang effects in the stories that influenced this game were those floating globes which incinerated those foolish enough to touch them in "People of the Black Circle." Magic in this world was more a matter of sorcery than deedle dee flashbang whizz effects.
One matter of semantics I'll make is that not all scholars are sorcerers, although I'd assume any player making one up does so with the intention of giving him access to spells. Sorcery in this game, as the rules have mentioned, is meant to be damning and deadly, draining the caster as well as giving him terrible power. Looking at the power curve, as is typical of the deedle dee game which inspired this game's OGL system, magic-users start off less powerful/more feeble than their fighting counterparts, but by 10th level are easily at a match, and more powerful afterwards if not craftily created before.
Despite all it's brokenness, my objections to this mechanic are not so much because it is broken, but because it does not fit the milieu.
I'm not sure where you get this impression from. In the Conan stories that I read there's plenty of sorcerers who get involved in combat (I'm currently in the middle of Hour of the Dragon and there's sorcerers in combat all over the place). Sure they mostly get chopped to bits, but then so does everyone who goes up against Conan. They mostly seem to be able to do it by having a lot of nifty alchemical shit and magic staves. Maybe making alchemical items easier for sorcerers to make and use (while making it very dangerous for someone without sorcerous training to use such an item) and provide some magic items (like those Khitian death sticks) that can only be safely be used by sorcerers would make sorcerous able to survive in combat without having to resort of something a cheesy as the DB (which should be scrapped completely).
As a note to sorcerers being helpless in combat - they can simply multiclass a bit to a fighter-type class. At least the soldier/scholar in my campaign is far from helpless and more involved in every skirmish with a greatsword than sorcery. He has actually kept his magic-use pretty much invisible from the rest of the characters, who do not know him to be a sorcerer, yet.
I agree that defensive blast is not fitting to REH's world, so it should be replaced with something cooler. The game mechanics of it are easy enough to fix by making it unusable with opportunist sacrifice and making the sorcerer exhausted. As I have no better alternative in my mind, I'm keeping it my campaign with the above mentioned house rules in place.
I agree that defensive blast is not fitting to REH's world, so it should be replaced with something cooler. The game mechanics of it are easy enough to fix by making it unusable with opportunist sacrifice and making the sorcerer exhausted. As I have no better alternative in my mind, I'm keeping it my campaign with the above mentioned house rules in place.
Another thing that makes the sorcerer weak is horrific MAD. They need Cha for getting their DCs respectable, wis for power points, int for known spells, everyone needs con and dex and even str is somewhat useful to them. This means that they'll either get really spread out of give themselves a big blindspot...
Maybe if mental stats were more useful in combat, sorerers would get a bit of a leg up.
Maybe if mental stats were more useful in combat, sorerers would get a bit of a leg up.
Majestic7 said:
In an of itself there's nothing wrong with scholars having MAD but they have it much more so than most other classes. For example soldiers really don't need much besides str and con, at least not in the way that scholars need just about everything which gives the scholars and additional disadvantage.
Daz said:
True, but on the other hand, they have access to sorcerous powers which are in themselves something the other classes don't have. It as well explains why there are no powerful sorcerers in every village - most people simply don't have what it takes to become one, even if they were willing to risk their souls for power.
Personally, the argument that Sorcerers "need" DB because they're so weak is not a good reason to have them. To include something, it should fit the genre, setting, and have "Balance." It shouldn't be a mechanic that puts the "fear" of sorcerers in the game because he has a possible wrath of god ability that can be stacked with opportunistic sacrifice.
1. Fear is flavor. So to begin with, GM's should run NPC's afraid of scholars in general, and not be targeting a known sorcerer because he knows that the sorcerer can't do anything in reprisal. That's metagaming, it's soo D&D, and it lacks imagination.
2. As I've said earlier, Alchemy needs a boost. Much of it doesn't match the power of the stories.
3. Delay tactics and preparedness on the part of the scholar should always be though about. Have last ditch items like poisons, alchemy, and spells like Death Touch, Entrance, and the like.
4. When all else fails, RUN! Hell, that happens a lot in Conan novels to both Heroes and Villians alike. One needs to know when to retreat before it's too late.
5. For PC scholars, they may need to take some levels in other classes showing the battle experience and lack of focus on scholarly methods.
Another option is to encourage the group to adopt a strategic mindset, and observe the enemy and plan a method to maximize the scholars ability.
6. I think Scholars could use some changes such making the Iron Will feat a bonus with a selection of feats to choose from. They should have a fear related ability such as Steely Gaze or Menacing Aura, as people fear what they don't know or understand and scholars use this to great advantage.
Any way, that's what I have for now.
1. Fear is flavor. So to begin with, GM's should run NPC's afraid of scholars in general, and not be targeting a known sorcerer because he knows that the sorcerer can't do anything in reprisal. That's metagaming, it's soo D&D, and it lacks imagination.
2. As I've said earlier, Alchemy needs a boost. Much of it doesn't match the power of the stories.
3. Delay tactics and preparedness on the part of the scholar should always be though about. Have last ditch items like poisons, alchemy, and spells like Death Touch, Entrance, and the like.
4. When all else fails, RUN! Hell, that happens a lot in Conan novels to both Heroes and Villians alike. One needs to know when to retreat before it's too late.
5. For PC scholars, they may need to take some levels in other classes showing the battle experience and lack of focus on scholarly methods.
Another option is to encourage the group to adopt a strategic mindset, and observe the enemy and plan a method to maximize the scholars ability.
6. I think Scholars could use some changes such making the Iron Will feat a bonus with a selection of feats to choose from. They should have a fear related ability such as Steely Gaze or Menacing Aura, as people fear what they don't know or understand and scholars use this to great advantage.
Any way, that's what I have for now.
Lord Jolly the Scribe
Mongoose
It's posts like this that make me want to quit playing d20 anything.
Genre this, DnD that, overpowered this, unfair that.
GM=God Mode. Last time I checked anything that gives a player a boost can easily be overcome by a good gamemaster.
And when we say "stick to the world's flavor", remember that even Darlage used info from outside Howard's original works to make his books. At least no one is giving sorcerers familiars and fireball spells and "polymorph into some crap" garbage.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk but math is not the reason for backing up an argument nor is game balance. Gm's are the sole determination of balance in any game, and it should be their decision whether or not to use a rule.
Genre this, DnD that, overpowered this, unfair that.
GM=God Mode. Last time I checked anything that gives a player a boost can easily be overcome by a good gamemaster.
And when we say "stick to the world's flavor", remember that even Darlage used info from outside Howard's original works to make his books. At least no one is giving sorcerers familiars and fireball spells and "polymorph into some crap" garbage.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk but math is not the reason for backing up an argument nor is game balance. Gm's are the sole determination of balance in any game, and it should be their decision whether or not to use a rule.
slaughterj
Mongoose
Bregales said:
Maybe I missed it in this particular thread, but I often see this comment made in spite of the fact that the Defensive Blast did have at least *some* basis from the original stories, which is why it made it into the book. It might not be exactly in the ideal fashion, but there is some basis. Maybe someone who remembers the exact book cite, like Vincent, can mention it here.
slaughterj
Mongoose
Trodax said:
I think the problem is that the mechanical aspects of how it came to be in the game are a bit awry. It is shaky on that basis, but it apparently has basis in the stories and so it should exist in some form, and that form should be effective in light of the quote.
slaughterj
Mongoose
jadrax said:
Wow, DB sounds so tough! :lol:
i just thought of some changes for DB to make it a little more defensive and actually including a risk for using it. afterall that is what magic is about in the hyborian age. only usable by some one knowing at least one sorcery style(might even limit it to summonings, curses or necromancy)
the sorceror chooses either to use fire or cold damage, either calling on the powers of hell or the outer darkness. all remaining pp are used up and each pp spent does 1d6 damage per pp but the sorceror must make a will save at the dc he set with his magic attack roll plus the amount of pp he spent to avoid having his soul carried off by a demon(instant death). a fate point can be spent to automatically succeed on the will save and must be spent before the sorceror rolls. if the sorceror survives he is fatigued and will not regain pp for a number of days equal to the amount of pp he spent on the blast.
also any one who isnt a sorceror(knows at least one sorcery style) and either witnesses or experiences the blast must make a fear of the unknown check, if they fail then they must immeadiately flee from the sorceror and if they succeed are shaken for 1d4 rounds. sorcerors who experience or witness this must also make a fear same but failure means they are shaken and success means they are unaffected but still likely to flee anyway.
the sorceror chooses either to use fire or cold damage, either calling on the powers of hell or the outer darkness. all remaining pp are used up and each pp spent does 1d6 damage per pp but the sorceror must make a will save at the dc he set with his magic attack roll plus the amount of pp he spent to avoid having his soul carried off by a demon(instant death). a fate point can be spent to automatically succeed on the will save and must be spent before the sorceror rolls. if the sorceror survives he is fatigued and will not regain pp for a number of days equal to the amount of pp he spent on the blast.
also any one who isnt a sorceror(knows at least one sorcery style) and either witnesses or experiences the blast must make a fear of the unknown check, if they fail then they must immeadiately flee from the sorceror and if they succeed are shaken for 1d4 rounds. sorcerors who experience or witness this must also make a fear same but failure means they are shaken and success means they are unaffected but still likely to flee anyway.
Sutek
Mongoose
That's cool, but the only mechanical problem with DB is that if coupled with the feat Opportunistic Sacrifice, then the Sorcerer can set up a recursive loop of freebie PP, spending it on the blast and then soaking up more PP afterwards.
However, I think I just cracked the code.
DB says it's a Free Action in which all of the Srocerer's PP are expended and he blasts out multiple d6 fire damage zapping anyone unfortunate enough to be within a 10' radius of him.
Okay.
Opp. Sacrifice is used anytime you "slay an enemy, whether by magic, melee or ranged attacks."
So, if you have to attack to Opp. Sacrifice, and DB is a Free Action rather than an attack, you can't do Opp. Sacrifice when you DB.
Did I just have an epiphany, or is this suddenly just really obvious to me?
:shock:
However, I think I just cracked the code.
DB says it's a Free Action in which all of the Srocerer's PP are expended and he blasts out multiple d6 fire damage zapping anyone unfortunate enough to be within a 10' radius of him.
Okay.
Opp. Sacrifice is used anytime you "slay an enemy, whether by magic, melee or ranged attacks."
So, if you have to attack to Opp. Sacrifice, and DB is a Free Action rather than an attack, you can't do Opp. Sacrifice when you DB.
Did I just have an epiphany, or is this suddenly just really obvious to me?
:shock: